Am I saved?

[Trailblazer]

If god did not give you a freedom to chose, you would be in the presence of god, for god, and with god. You would have no need for sin because that would be unknown to you. Your free will is to do things for god and with god. All your choices will have god in mind.

If god did not give you free will, all you have is god. Your choices would be interrelated with his. Like jesus, you'd be one and the same line with god. Jesus didn't need sin to follow his father. He did so because he was devoted to his father. His choice wasn't because of sin but because of his devotion to god.

Two very different devotional lifestyles: one with sin and one without.

Humans cannot be like Jesus. Jesus was a Manifestation of God. He was sinless.

Actually, you wouldn't need to be tempted nor have the opportunity to do so if you only had god.

I don't understand why you'd think god would set you up if he didn't give you freedom to choose. If you didn't have to chose between good and bad, then that's fine. It's still free will. But what confuses me is not the actual free will but the reason you want it: to have the temptation to sin in order to not sin and be with god. That I don't understand.

I do not want free will, I have free will. I do not want it so I can have the freedom to choose between sin and God. Because I have it I can choose between sin and God.

I live among christians; so, I use their language a lot. Being in god's presence is being in the presence and experience of love and grace. So, basically, you feel grateful and loved all the time because god is always with you 24/7 non-stop. When a christian sins, they break that bond with god. So, they repent to mend the relationship and continue to live with god. That's in his presence. I don't know how Bahai uses the phrase. The dependency on scripture as explanation doesn't help with clarifications.

I cannot speak for other Baha’is, but I do not believe I live in the presence of God or that God is always with me 24/7, non-stop. I am not that important. God is wherever God is. I do not know where that is.

I disagree. When a person does not know god exists, they can't turn their back to him. When someone doesn't want to follow god, they aren't turning their back. They choose to follow what they know is true. If they had to keep feeling guilt for "rejecting god" then that's why you have people upset over indoctrination. If they are constantly told they turned their back to god because that's what they want, then guilt seeps in. It is unhealthy.

I, quote on quote, turned by back on what you call god because I had to. It was hurting my heart and well being. It was living a lie. I was never indoctrinated; so, I never had the guilt feeling of people saying I rejected god or I turned my back or some other nonesense. I followed my heart.

That's what people do. They are healthier and happier because of it. I notice when people become christians, they built a them/us view practically overnight. I don't know how, but its like their language just turns Greek and Roman in a flash.

One cannot turn their back on a God they do not believe exists. Once we believe God exists we might feel that way, if we are rejecting God. Been there, done that.

The issue is you want free will to sin. I don't see you being robots by doing what god wants and not what you want. I just don't understand the desire to have temptation to sin in order to learn not sinning. Sounds like a catch-22 or oxymoron of some sort.

I do not want to have free will so I can sin and learn from not sinning. I just believe I have free will.

Yes. You can obey. Free will just says "you have a choice to sin". It teaches you nothing unless you sin and learn from it. If you are obeying god and he shows you everything you need to learn, how is sin doing you a favor in learning from god when you can learn so much more from his messengers and god himself?

It is best we learn from the messengers and not sin but if we sin we will learn not to. I know a young woman who just had this experience. She felt very guilty for the sin but a week later she was grateful because it caused her to turn to God and she learned never to make that mistake again.

Yes. Taking out free will relieves me of that choice. I'd be fully with god.

That would be a good thing.

But that is not your choice because we were created as sentient beings who can choose between good and evil.

He doesn't need to chose for you if the option wasn't there to begin with. You chose to worship not to sin.

But we were created as sentient beings so the option is there.

When I turned away from god, I did so because of my heart not because of sin. God gave me this free will (to make a point rather than something I believe) so I can follow my heart. Yet, given I used the option he gave me, I still did something bad because although the option was there, I wasn't supposed to take it.

It's doesn't make sense.

God: I give you free will to do good or evil
Me: Okay god. I choose good
God: That's perfect!
Me: But you gave me a choice, right god?
God: Yes, choices are good (free will is good)
Me: So, I'm allowed to sin???

God: No, says god, you have to choose me

Me: That's not free will. That's an ultimatum.

And god says: It is what it is.

Are you following me?

I am following you but that is not what God does. God does not say “you have to choose me.”

I personally would want no free will. At least I'd be with god forever. I don't like having supposed free will but the only option is god even though I have a choice to sin. It's cheating.

Are you saying God is cheating because He says He is the only choice but then He tempts you with sin?

The only option is not God. You can choose to be an atheist and sin or be an atheist and not sin. Or you can choose God and sin or not sin.

 

[Trailblazer]

1) What determines a 'choice'? Nothing? Spontaneity? What exactly?

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make moral choices. For example, I can choose to murder my husband or not. Regarding choices that relate to physical needs, we are compelled to eat and sleep, but we can chose what we eat and when and how long we sleep.

If we are not making choices and things are happening, the only other way they could be happening is if someone/something is controlling our behavior.

2) There's a difference between an educated guess, and knowledge. There's a difference between probability, and certainty. There is no comparison with the astronomer.

The fact that God knows what is going to happen for certain is not what causes it to happen.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God........

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image. Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Humans cannot be like Jesus. Jesus was a Manifestation of God. He was sinless.

Do you understand where Im coming from, though?

I do not want free will, I have free will. I do not want it so I can have the freedom to choose between sin and God. Because I have it I can choose between sin and God.

My point is you dont need sin. Im challenging your logic not disproving its validity.

I cannot speak for other Baha’is, but I do not believe I live in the presence of God or that God is always with me 24/7, non-stop. I am not that important. God is wherever God is. I do not know where that is.

I never heard that from a believer of abraham. The only abrahamics, by history, are jewish, islam, and christian. I dont know if jews and muslims believe god is always with them. Christians do intensively.

One cannot turn their back on a God they do not believe exists. Once we believe God exists we might feel that way, if we are rejecting God. Been there, done that.

Thats why it doesnt make sense to say a person can unless you specific which group of people can and others who, logically, cannot.

I do not want to have free will so I can sin and learn from not sinning. I just believe I have free wi

Because you have free will, you can sin. There is no purpose in putting temptation in your worldview when you dont need to be tempted nor sin to follow god. (When I say god, you can replace it with messengers since they are interchangable)

But that is not your choice because we were created as sentient beings who can choose between good and evil.

Its an open ended conversation.

Do you see how it makes sense to only love god without the need of sin?

But we were created as sentient beings so the option is there.

Not if we can reject god. Thats not an option. Thats an ultimatum.

I am following you but that is not what God does. God does not say “you have to choose me.

Rejection and turning ones back has consequences. Unless you believe all people go to heaven, every action has a consequence or benefit. If you dont chose god, you reject him. Its inherited in the equation. Once you put bad, yes, god wants you to chose him. If not, no one would be bahai, christian, or so have you.

Are you saying God is cheating because He says He is the only choice but then He tempts you with sin

No. He gives an ultimatum (I give you good and bad options. You chose bad, you have consequences; so, its in your best interest to chose me. But hey, Im not going to force you.)

I couldnt figure another world but cheat. I have to go back.

The only option is not God. You can choose to be an atheist and sin or be an atheist and not sin. Or you can choose God and sin or not sin

You cant chose to be an atheist. Thats silly.

What Im focused on is the ultimatum. You dont need bad to make choices. You dont need sin.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you understand where Im coming from, though?

My point is you dont need sin. Im challenging your logic not disproving its validity.

I understand. Maybe we do not need to sin but sin exists.

I never heard that from a believer of abraham. The only abrahamics, by history, are jewish, islam, and christian. I dont know if jews and muslims believe god is always with them. Christians do intensively.

I think it is a Christian thing.

Because you have free will, you can sin. There is no purpose in putting temptation in your worldview when you dont need to be tempted nor sin to follow god. (When I say god, you can replace it with messengers since they are interchangable)

But the temptation is there whether you need it or not.

Do you see how it makes sense to only love god without the need of sin?

Yes.

Not if we can reject god. Thats not an option. Thats an ultimatum.

Not in the Baha'i Faith. It is only for our sake that God wants our worship.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

Rejection and turning ones back has consequences. Unless you believe all people go to heaven, every action has a consequence or benefit. If you dont chose god, you reject him. Its inherited in the equation. Once you put bad, yes, god wants you to chose him. If not, no one would be bahai, christian, or so have you.

No. He gives an ultimatum (I give you good and bad options. You chose bad, you have consequences; so, its in your best interest to chose me. But hey, Im not going to force you.)

I couldnt figure another world but cheat. I have to go back.

God wants us to choose Him for our own sake. Yes, there are consequences if we don't, that we do not get the rewards.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

You cant chose to be an atheist. Thats silly.

What Im focused on is the ultimatum. You dont need bad to make choices. You dont need sin.

You are an atheist if you do not believe in God. Everyone is capable of believing in God, but not all people can realize their potential. It is not an ultimatum, it is a choice, but not one everyone can make.

 

[Deeje]

If we ask the wrong question we will probably come to the wrong conclusions.

Jesus wasn't in the business of selling Fire Insurance" He was in the business of loving and caring for people. In my spiritual journey I have usually found that people who are always looking at new religions are being subconsciously motivated out of shame & guilt, many people who grow up in religious families spent their lives looking for acceptance and validation, because as we all know Institutional Christianity and religious people are masters at shaming people.

It seems to me that when people change direction in their thinking on matters of importance, they usually lose their balance and swing too far the other way. I do not see a single teaching of Christ that sanctions immorality.

It is interesting to me that the first thing Adam and his wife felt when they sinned was....shame. They covered their reproductive parts in an effort to ameliorate their situation and take the shame away...it was something they had never felt before.....did that feeling of shame come from God? And was it a bad thing given that sexual sin comprised a great deal of Israel's Law?

I would rather feel shame and guilt at committing wrongdoing than shameless in committing immorality.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I actually dont read scriptures. It doesnt offer spiritual clarification and its onesided.

I understand. Maybe we do not need to sin but sin exists.

The point is we dont need it.

To me there is no sin. There needs to be a god in order to wrong him somehow.

I think it is a Christian thing.

Shrugs.

But the temptation is there whether you need it or no

It doesnt need to be there for you to believe in god. Since there is no sin, temptation is a "sin" against ourselves not god.

Not in the Baha'i Faith. It is only for our sake that God wants our worship.

Thats different than how I hear it. Its usually god first and me second.

God wants us to choose Him for our own sake. Yes, there are consequences if we don't, that we do not get the rewards.

Thats what an ultimatum does. It sets up options but has consequences for chosing the wrong option. Coersion.

You are an atheist if you do not believe in God. Everyone is capable of believing in God, but not all people can realize their potential. It is not an ultimatum, it is a choice, but not one everyone can make.

Depends on which god. Thats a very vague statement for an atheist and any other person who doesnt see god as you do would probably take it.

Its not a needed decision and doesnt have consequences for chosing an option outside of god. Everyone has consequences for their actions. Going away from god isnt an imoral action like killing. There shouldnt be a consequence (whether there is, is your belief). Im open to understand what you say if we are mutual in that goal.

 

[Sleeppy]

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make moral choices. For example, I can choose to murder my husband or not. Regarding choices that relate to physical needs, we are compelled to eat and sleep, but we can chose what we eat and when and how long we sleep.

If we are not making choices and things are happening, the only other way they could be happening is if someone/something is controlling our behavior.

The fact that God knows what is going to happen for certain is not what causes it to happen.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God........

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image. Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

1) There is no freedom in will. As you point out, it is causal. Will relies foremost on your genetic makeup, and your genetic makeup determines your reaction to your environment. Morality is causal. You haven't murdered your husband because of a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

2) Repeating what some other source tells you doesn't validate it.

I am however giving you a very valuable secret from God:

God is not subverted.

A) Jesus told you, "there is One who is good." Do you not believe? How is it that you call yourself good, by saying that you are a source of good morality?

B) Jesus told you to confess of your Father, "Yours is the reign, and the power, and the glory." Do you think to receive reign over yourself? Power? How is it that you are receiving glory, claiming that righteousness is yours to determine?

C) The Father Himself created all things, of His own unavoidable Word, and for His own pleasure. How is it that you are free of Him? What are you able to create in the 'freeness' of your will, apart from His knowledge- which is His power?

D) Jesus told you these things: "No one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day." Is it you who has drawn yourself? And who, with what power, may resist the all-powerful God, when he is drawn?

E) What you are describing is not freedom, but ignorance; a spirit of self-righteousness. If you are able to understand this secret from God, their is a great reward for returning to God what God retains.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We still have choices. DNA does not decide what we will do.

It narrows the field of choices down quite a bit.

God doesn't tell people that.

How do we confirm?

They are not diametrically opposed, but if one loves God one will deny self for God.

If this were a Venn diagram, you'd be inside the circle of God. You don't really have much of a self to deny.

It is not bad, it is what some people choose to do in it that is bad.

But choices can be traced to both nature and nurture. No one makes "free" choices at all.

If you had no free will you could not DO anything.

If I don't tell my Sims what to do and they have "free will" checked as an option, they will do what they do per their personality traits. The funny thing is, even with "free will" checked off, they can STILL only do as programmed.

God intervenes by sending messengers, which is a theistic point of view.

Why are messengers necessary? God created the universe but can't deal with problems directly?

That is why God sends messengers with teachings and laws.

You told me that God wouldn't tell people to murder and yet there are plenty of "God's messengers" who tell me to do that very thing. So, which is it?

God wants us to choose.

Not really.

When a christian sins, they break that bond with god.

I consider it more like getting stains on the carpet. Carpet's still there and functions as a carpet should. Just now you have to clean it.

Humans cannot be like Jesus. Jesus was a Manifestation of God. He was sinless.

Lots of people can be better than Jesus if they aren't racist, lazy, and hypocritical.

I do not want free will, I have free will.

You want it because it bothers you that you can't prove you have it. You NEED to feel your choices were your own so you can take credit for it. It's almost like you were wired that way. If free will exists, choose to believe your choices are based on internal and external factors. Can you?

She felt very guilty for the sin but a week later she was grateful because it caused her to turn to God and she learned never to make that mistake again.

What happens when messengers tell people about a sin that isn't really one objectively?

 

[Trailblazer]

To me there is no sin. There needs to be a god in order to wrong him somehow.
I do not think we can wrong God. God does not need us for anything. It is ourselves we wrong when we turn away from God. Only we suffer. God does not suffer.

It doesnt need to be there for you to believe in god. Since there is no sin, temptation is a "sin" against ourselves not god.

True, sin is against ourselves. It does not affect God although God might be unhappy for us. I do not know.

Thats different than how I hear it. Its usually god first and me second.

It is God first and us second, but not because God needs us, because that is good for us to put God above ourselves because then we will want to do what God has enjoined us to do, serve God by denying self for others.

Thats what an ultimatum does. It sets up options but has consequences for chosing the wrong option. Coersion.

All actions have consequences. There are rewards and punishments in this world and the next. The problem is we cannot see the afterlife from this life. If we could see it we would all worship God and sacrifice our material world desires. There would be no sin.

Depends on which god. Thats a very vague statement for an atheist and any other person who doesnt see god as you do would probably take it.

Its not a needed decision and doesnt have consequences for chosing an option outside of god. Everyone has consequences for their actions. Going away from god isnt an imoral action like killing. There shouldnt be a consequence (whether there is, is your belief). Im open to understand what you say if we are mutual in that goal.

No, I do not consider atheists immoral. They just don't believe in God, mostly because they see no evidence that God exists. They will know after they die. Some fruit only ripens after it falls from the tree.

I cannot say what the consequences are of not believing till after we die. There is nothing definitive in the Baha'i Writings and what there is can be interpreted differently by different people. All I can say is that it is better if we believe before we die, but I do not judge anyone for not believing. I think some atheists are going to be held accountable though, if they were arrogant and disrespectful towards God, saying God makes mistakes or is immoral and does not know how to communicate properly. It would be different if they were not told about the messengers of God, but once they know and have been told over and over, then I think they are accountable. Maybe they are not accountable to believe in the messenger but not believing is different from insulting the messenger and God. People cannot always help what they think and feel, but they are accountable for what they say and do. That is justice. This is the day of justice.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm.

It is God first and us second, but not because God needs us, because that is good for us to put God above ourselves because then we will want to do what God has enjoined us to do, serve God by denying self for others.

That's why free will doesn't exist unless you want free will to chose to sin. If god is above all, unless you want to sin, there is no reason of having it.

All actions have consequences. There are rewards and punishments in this world and the next. The problem is we cannot see the afterlife from this life. If we could see it we would all worship God and sacrifice our material world desires. There would be no sin.

That's your personal belief, though.

No, I do not consider atheists immoral. They just don't believe in God, mostly because they see no evidence that God exists. They will know after they die. Some fruit only ripens after it falls from the tree.

The last part, I never liked that view point. You don't have to say its immoral. I can careless about evidence. RF issues, I notice more than offline in my experience. In person, no one cares.

They won't when they die. That's your belief. People just die. That's it. Poof. Afterlife helps people adjust to this life. Many don't want to think they are just random people with no inherited purpose. It's one thing to help yourself with god, but to say others will in the future like yourself?

That's totally bypassing the fact that you could be wrong. In that note, it's not appropriate to say absolutes. Maybe they would; but, that depends on whether the belief is a fact. Another thing about that is, if god decided to show up and say I love you come with me, I would say no. Not because he asked me but because of what I experienced and knowledge of god myself I have no wish to follow him.

Some people don't follow and will not at all because they know it is false or does not work for them. I know you believe otherwise; but, I find it healthy not to make absolutes on others just yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

1) There is no freedom in will. As you point out, it is causal. Will relies foremost on your genetic makeup, and your genetic makeup determines your reaction to your environment. Morality is causal. You haven't murdered your husband because of a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

That is true that genetics and environment play a role, but the main reason is because I have a sense of right and wrong and I make a choice to choose right actions. The knowledge of right and wrong is learned from our parents but that came from religion originally; i.e., what the messengers of God have revealed over the course of history.

I am however giving you a very valuable secret from God: God is not subverted.

I never said that God is subverted. Our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore whatever we are able to choose we are only able to choose because it is congruent with God's will. That is not self-righteousness. It is knowing that God has all power.

 

[Sleeppy]

That is true that genetics and environment play a role, but the main reason is because I have a sense of right and wrong and I make a choice to choose right actions. The knowledge of right and wrong is learned from our parents but that came from religion originally; i.e., what the messengers of God have revealed over the course of history.

I never said that God is subverted. Our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore whatever we are able to choose we are only able to choose because it is congruent with God's will. That is not self-righteousness. It is knowing that God has all power.

It is a subversive belief. You are believing that you can steal from God- righteousness being God's. And, He gives it according to Himself, not your determination, without fail.

You did not develop your sense of right. Nor did you develop what is wrong. If you are able, return to God what God retains. If not, there is nothing further we can discuss.

 

[Trailblazer]

But choices can be traced to both nature and nurture. No one makes "free" choices at all.

I consider that am abdication of responsibility. Is that what we tell the judge, nature or nurture made me do it? If we were not responsible for the choices we make we would not be held accountable in courts of law.

Why are messengers necessary? God created the universe but can't deal with problems directly?

How do you think an immaterial God would do that?

You told me that God wouldn't tell people to murder and yet there are plenty of "God's messengers" who tell me to do that very thing. So, which is it?

Those are not God's messengers.

You want it because it bothers you that you can't prove you have it. You NEED to feel your choices were your own so you can take credit for it. It's almost like you were wired that way. If free will exists, choose to believe your choices are based on internal and external factors. Can you?

Conversely, I have to be responsible for mistakes I make. I am not saying we have complete freedom of choice, because external and internal factors influence our ability to make choices we might want to make. But here is the caveat: If I convince myself I do not have a choice because I have no free will, I won't even try to change things that need changing.

What happens when messengers tell people about a sin that isn't really one objectively?

I do not like that word, sin. Sin just means being selfish. Some people are not aware that they are selfish, but awareness is the first step. Then we try to overcome our selfishness. That does not mean we cannot have anything for ourselves, but to put our brother before ourselves is the latest message from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is a subversive belief. You are believing that you can steal from God- righteousness being God's. And, He gives it according to Himself, not your determination, without fail.

So, you are saying that man cannot act righteously and God still retain His righteousness?
I never said that God gives according to what we determine.

You did not develop your sense of right. Nor did you develop what is wrong.

Where did it come from then?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's why free will doesn't exist unless you want free will to chose to sin. If god is above all, unless you want to sin, there is no reason of having it.

Logically speaking, we either have free will or not.

They won't when they die. That's your belief. People just die. That's it. Poof. Afterlife helps people adjust to this life. Many don't want to think they are just random people with no inherited purpose. It's one thing to help yourself with god, but to say others will in the future like yourself?

That's totally bypassing the fact that you could be wrong. In that note, it's not appropriate to say absolutes. Maybe they would; but, that depends on whether the belief is a fact. Another thing about that is, if god decided to show up and say I love you come with me, I would say no. Not because he asked me but because of what I experienced and knowledge of god myself I have no wish to follow him.

Some people don't follow and will not at all because they know it is false or does not work for them. I know you believe otherwise; but, I find it healthy not to make absolutes on others just yourself.

I never said I could not be wrong, but I have complete certitude in what I believe about the afterlife. But that does not mean I expect others to believe what I do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Logically speaking, we either have free will or no

If god is first, we dont. If he is second, we do

I never said I could not be wrong, but I have complete certitude in what I believe about the afterlife. But that does not mean I expect others to believe what I do.

The logic of they will know when they die is pretty much hardwired in many believers. Like hate the sin not the sinner. If the sin is only a sin to the believer but not immoral in itself, we should love both the sin and sinner because in many cases, what is called sin is just the moral expression and blessings from the sinner. Its based on perspective not fact. Free will is the same.

But when do you go beyond what you believe to think about other truths outside your own?

 

[Trailblazer]

The logic of they will know when they die is pretty much hardwired in many believers. Like hate the sin not the sinner. If the sin is only a sin to the believer but not immoral in itself, we should love both the sin and sinner because in many cases, what is called sin is just the moral expression and blessings from the sinner. Its based on perspective not fact. Free will is the same.

Who determines what is immoral? There has to be a standard as to what is a sin and what is not. Logically speaking, God sets that standard and we can follow it or not. With no teachings and laws that come through the messengers of God, humanity is completely lost, left to determine their own standards. It would be like a city that has no stoplights, everyone running into each other because they think they are right and they have the right of way.

Free will is part of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith: 70: FREE WILL
I believe we have it as described in that chapter and it makes sense to me given everything I observe about human behavior.

But when do you go beyond what you believe to think about other truths outside your own?

All the time. That is one reason I come to forums, to get other perspectives.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Who determines what is immoral? There has to be a standard as to what is a sin and what is not. Logically speaking, God sets that standard and we can follow it or not. With no teachings and laws that come through the messengers of God, humanity is completely lost, left to determine their own standards. It would be like a city that has no stoplights, everyone running into each other because they think th

Morality is determined by societal and cultural norms which for many includes religion (gods, god, or no god(s)). Logically, god has no play in morals. Its a societal construct not a godly one.

Free will is part of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith: 70: FREE WILL
I believe we have it as described in that chapter and it makes sense to me given every

Everyones definition is different. I dont see it one sided. Free will isnt part of my faith; so, I usually dont say anything unless you guys are interested.

All the time. That is one reason I come to forums, to get other perspectives.

Different perspectives means you take active interest in other peoples views. Its taking interest in something other than your belief (like asking me my beliefs, for example) and talking about the other belief as truth for that person put of respect.

Its not passive. Especially online.

Also, it helps with first impressions to ask about posting scripture unless you have a line or two liners that we can read get your point and continue on. That, and scriptures posting assumes the conversation is geared towards bahai.

It makes it where you dont see other perspectives.

Anyway,

Free will doesnt come from god. Active listening and learning involve both parties interesting learning the other actively (asking and exchanging info). Abrahamics dont do that as much. Its not a personal trait. Something about you guys faith blind you to it.

De ja vu.

Edited.

 

[Sleeppy]

So, you are saying that man cannot act righteously and God still retain His righteousness?
I never said that God gives according to what we determine.

Where did it come from then?

Righteousness comes from God. It does not originate anywhere else, or with anyone else.

All praise- all glory be to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Morality is determined by societal and cultural norms which for many includes religion (gods, god, or no god(s)). Logically, god has no play in morals. Its a societal construct not a godly one.

God sets the standards for moral behavior through by sending messengers who reveal teachings and laws. Social and cultural norms are based upon religious teachings.

Different perspectives means you take active interest in other peoples views. Its taking interest in something other than your belief (like asking me my beliefs, for example) and talking about the other belief as truth for that person put of respect.

To me it means the willingness to listen to other perspectives and discuss them, which is what I do, day in, day out. I then share what I believe because that is all I know. I do see other peoples' perspectives but I am not obligated to agree with them when they go against my beliefs. To say I agree would be dishonest, but I can disagree respectfully. We all can.

Free will doesnt come from god.

If God created humans then free will comes from God.