America is a secular nation.

[Autodidact]

It is an Anglophone nation, and its culture is most definitely predominated by European influence.

If your only point is the obvious demographic and historical one, it is really not worth making. We all know who settled America. The question is, what form of government did they choose to implement? And the answer is: a secular one. They did this primarily to protect their own freedom to practice their religion, as contrasted with their experience in Europe.

Jews segregate themselves into Jewish neigborhoods so they can live according to their beliefs without worry. -Very specific beliefs that would be impossible to follow in a gentile neighborhood. It depends on the level of Judaism they practice. But I don't blame them either way; but the fact is that they do.

No, it's not. Jews in America live in all neighborhoods, and are no more segregated than Christians. Historically, Jews were forced to live in segregated neighborhoods, not as a matter of choice. This is more true in Europe than in the U.S., but true to a certain extent here too. There is no Jewish belief I can think of that cannot be complied with in a mixed neighborhood, as long as there is a shul within walking distance. I will grant that, for this reason, many orthodox Jews tend to live near their shuls.

And I'm not going to provide evidence for a known fact because an ignorant person chooses to be ignorant.

I take it that you cannot substantiate your groundless and spurious allegation. Everyone who questions you is not ignorant. I tend to guess that I know more about Jews and our way of life than you.

Here in Denver, where I live, the most Jewish neighborhood in the city may be as much as 1.3 Jewish, no more.

 

[Luke_17:2]

If your only point is the obvious demographic and historical one, it is really not worth making. We all know who settled America. The question is, what form of government did they choose to implement? And the answer is: a secular one. They did this primarily to protect their own freedom to practice their religion, as contrasted with their experience in Europe.

Is there a point? If you read my previous posts, you'll find that I agree.

What I deny is the title of the thread: the United States is NOT a secular nation.

If you believe that, you better tell the 200 million Christians who live here, because they're not wise to it. And as 200 million people contributes 2/3 of are population, and that a nation is defined as a people corporated into a distinct unit, then we're most definitely a Christian nation.

 

[Autodidact]

In reality only a few of the founding fathers were Deists. It is also true that the constitution mirrors many Christian principles and the founding fathrs believed that Christian morals were an essential part of wisely being able to serve our country.

I believe the consensus of most historians is that Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton were all Deists, and Washington concealed his true religious beliefs behind a church attending conformism and silence.

Please state which Christian principles you believe are "mirrored" in the Constitution? In what way? What do you mean by mirrored?

You do know that religion is mentioned only twice in the Constitution, once to state that Congress may not establish one, and once to say that no religious test for public office may be required, right? If the Constitution is based on Christianity, why didn't they include it in the Constitution?

 

[Autodidact]

It is what comes after the semi-colon, which I bolded, that qualifies the statement. This is funamental rules of the English language which means that the previous stament is not a declaritive statement but qualified by what comes after it.

? What "funamental" rule is that? And how does it qualify it? This treaty, unanimously ratified by the senate, indicates that the Senate at the time, soon after our nation's founding, did not believe that they had founded the nation on the religion of Christianity. It is strong historical evidence.

 

[Autodidact]

Quotes taken out of context and sometimes spoken by fools are like statistics. I like what Mark Twain said abour lies. He said there are three kinds, lies, damned lies and statistics.

If you think any of these quotes need context to clarify their meaning, feel free to supply it. Would you like the complete text of Jefferson's letter to his nephew? I think it makes his religious beliefs very clear, and they were not Christian.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually, MANY of the founding fathers were strongly against Christianity. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Paine, and many others were outspoken against Christianity.

I think you should leave Washington off this list. He was close-mouthed on the subject.

 

[Autodidact]

You're wrong. What they spoke out against was a state religion.

Do you ever bother checking to see whether what you say is correct?

Thomas Paine:

The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.

"You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible....my disbelief of the Bible is founded on a pure and religious belief in God; for in my opinion the Bible is a gross libel against the justice and goodness of God, in almost every part of it."

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

Whenever we read the obscene stories the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindicitiveness with which more than half the bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon rather than the word of god. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it as I detest everything that is cruel.

Thomas Jefferson:

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

Well, that will do for now. Ask me if you want more.

 

[Autodidact]

You are right. It is a nation founded by Christians who believed in freedom of religion. They also believed that the public servants should be guided by the principles of the morality of Christianity.

Where did you pull that out of?

 

[Luke_17:2]

I think you should leave Washington off this list. He was close-mouthed on the subject.

Definitely. He was an episcopalian. Also take Madison off the list -he too was an episcopalian. Thomas Paine wasn't a founding father, and his opinion counts for nothing, therefore.

You'll find that only a few framers were deists, most were episcopalians, some were presbyterians, and congregationalists, and methodists. There was at least one Baptist, a few Roman Catholics, and one or two Dutch reformed.

They all had one thing in common: they're belief in the separation of church and state. But I won't buy that reformed history crap that says they were all or mostly deists.

 

[Smoke]

Washington concealed his true religious beliefs behind a church attending conformism and silence.

I think you should leave Washington off this list. He was close-mouthed on the subject.

A man of Washington's social position in 18th-century Virginia was expected to be prominently Anglican, and Washington made it pretty clear that he considered religion a good thing for the common people.

However, it's pretty clear he wasn't too Christian himself. Whatever religious opinions he may have had seem to have had more to do with Freemasonry than with Christianity, and his friends described him as a Deist. His personal correspondence is notably devoid of Christian piety, and he used to embarrass Martha (who was a pious Anglican) by refusing to kneel in prayer and by leaving church before Communion.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, many Christians evangelize because we look at the Bible and see a commission to win souls. Now, would you call evangelization interfering with your personal lives? The thing is it's our constitutional right: "Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Nope. We proselyte quite ferverently, but we don't impose our religion on you. And, as I said, we have a right to proselyte under the First Amendment.

It depends on the context and method. For example, when officers and teachers at a military academy do it, it's an unconstitutional violation of the rights of the cadets. You have a right to free speech, and I have a right not to listen to you.

What do you think of the recent $11 million verdict against the Phelps church for picketing a soldier's funeral with religious messages?

I decided 40 years ago that I most definitely would have been a Tory during the revolution.

It's good to know, and really everything anyone reading this thread needs to know about you. You oppose what the founding fathers fought for. I, on the other hand, support it.

Yes, the Founding Fathers were liberal to the point of revolutionary -so they strove for a government that would be secular. I don't deny that. The thing they had no control over is whether or not the US was a Christian nation -that's up to the people to decide, and the vast majority of society was Christian. Still is.

That's changing though, the U.S. is becoming less Christian.

Most tories viewed it as treason so, of course, they wouldn't attend.

This is the group you would be in.

Don't cross me on this subject. I've studied this subject since before I was still a youngster, and have studied it ever since.

Show us, don't tell us.

The constitution says that "...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States" -Under the United States: that means in the federal government. The states aren't bound by that clause; they didn't operate by it; and the federal government made no move to change that after the ratification process. Why? Because the states have every right to lean toward one religion or another. That's because they're sovereign; coequal with the federal government.

So, it's not illegal. You obviously need to take several courses in constitutional law.

You might want to teach that course to the Supreme Court as well. Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

Anyway, a treaty between two nations ceases to be valid when one of the signers ceases to exist. As a matter if fact, it ceased to be valid 8 years after the signing. It is a half-baked argument.

Nevertheless, it provides strong historical evidence of the understanding of 100% of the senate at a time just after the nation's founding.

Look it up.

I recommend this to you.

 

[Smoke]

Also take Madison off the list -he too was an episcopalian.

Madison wasn't hostile to religion, but he was strongly hostile to involving religion in politics.

Thomas Paine wasn't a founding father, and his opinion counts for nothing, therefore.

That betrays a shocking ignorance. His Common Sense was the best-selling book in colonial America. He was instrumental in bringing about the Declaration of Independence. George Washington ordered his Crisis series to be read to the troops. He served as an ambassador of the infant United States, and he was the one who gave this country its name. He was, more than any other person, Jefferson and Washington included, the author of the American independence.

 

[Autodidact]

A man of Washington's social position in 18th-century Virginia was expected to be prominently Anglican, and Washington made it pretty clear that he considered religion a good thing for the common people.

However, it's pretty clear he wasn't too Christian himself. Whatever religious opinions he may have had seem to have had more to do with Freemasonry than with Christianity, and his friends described him as a Deist. His personal correspondence is notably devoid of Christian piety, and he used to embarrass Martha (who was a pious Anglican) by refusing to kneel in prayer and by leaving church before Communion.

Yes, I think we have to remain agnostic concerning Washington's religious beliefs.

 

[Autodidact]

Is there a point? If you read my previous posts, you'll find that I agree.

What I deny is the title of the thread: the United States is NOT a secular nation.

If you believe that, you better tell the 200 million Christians who live here, because they're not wise to it. And as 200 million people contributes 2/3 of are population, and that a nation is defined as a people corporated into a distinct unit, then we're most definitely a Christian nation.

That's fascinating. The majority of Americans are Christian. We needed you to tell us that, Captain Obvious. The word "nation" has several meanings; I believe that the OP intended to refer to our traditions of government, hence the references to the Constitution. While the majority of our inhabitants are Christian, our system of government is secular, which is what matters much more to the minority of us who are not Christian.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

America is a nation of occult origin.
Hidden in plain sight.

I think I may have seen that movie.

 

[Somkid]

There is no such thing as "separation of church and state in the USA" this is a common error people make. There is however law in place to keep the church from controlling the state or from taking over the state as happened in many countries in Europe.

 

[Jistyr]

Get over it. Christians built this society, and we built it so non-Christians can live here in peace. Would Muslims do that? Would atheists do that? Would Jews do that? Absoulutely not.

How absurd.

As if you know the intentions of every other person simply based upon their religion, or lack of it.

 

[Ciscokid]

How is this out of context? There is nothing in the complete reading to suggest the US were a Christian nation.

The US was a product of the Enlightwnment. It was an experiment in progressive Humanism.
Fundamentalist Christians are un-American. Perhaps they should leave....

Too bad that experiment failed. Seems today Americans believe in ghosts, devils, angels and spirits etc than ever before. It's rather unnerving.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thomas Paine wasn't a founding father, and his opinion counts for nothing, therefore.

You are wrong on this. Thomas Paine was a MAJOR influence on the Founding Fathers. While Paine himself was not a Founding Father, his writings had a massive impact on the forming of America.
I would go as far to call him a Founding Grand-Father of America, and the sole true framer of the Constitution. He was that important in establishing America. Paine's opinion counts far more than any of the Founding Fathers do, especially since his opinion was shared by almost all of them.

But I won't buy that reformed history crap that says they were all or mostly deists.

Well, then don't buy it. But most of them were Deist. And I am unaware of any source that claims they were all deists.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, I think we have to remain agnostic concerning Washington's religious beliefs.

You may remain agnostic but Washington wasn't.

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." August 20,1778

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." May 2, 1778

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son andonly Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
[prayers from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]​