America is a secular nation.

[McBell]

This is the second time you have mentioned whining to me. So any disagreement is whining? I guess all the Gay right threads are whining too?

Guilty conscious?
The thing is, you did not address the point.
Instead you went on about opinions being problems.

Seems to me that you either get side tracked rather easily or are attempting to distract from the point.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I guess all the Gay right threads are whining too?

Answer Please.

 

[McBell]

Answer Please.

Not all of them.
Merely the ones where you stopped addressing the points and resorted to distraction tactics.

Oh wait... Perhaps it IS all of them?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Not all of them.
Merely the ones where you stopped addressing the points and resorted to distraction tactics.

Oh wait... Perhaps it IS all of them?

:tribal:

 

[McBell]

:tribal:

Merely calling it how I see it.
If you do not like the picture I am seeing, perhaps you should paint a different one?

And judging from the Frubals I have recieved from this thread alone, I would surmise that I am not alone in this opinion.

(see, even I will toss out an appeal to numbers)

 

[Reverend Rick]

A frubal race it is! I'm leading!

 

[McBell]

A frubal race it is! I'm leading!

Ok.
However, I propose that we do a frubals to posts ratio.

 

[Valjean]

Careful -- the love of frubals is the root of all evil...

 

[Reverend Rick]

Not to mention that I have Frubal envy every time I see Phil post.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Luke, how could you take something good and turn it into something so ugly?

I just merely stated facts.

Once again, the same people you condemn also were the group that gave Blacks the right to vote, and the equal rights amendment. There must have been more folks fighting to free slaves and make things fair, because it was not an easy change to make, but it was done because it was the right thing to do.

I never condemned anyone. I just said playing by the rules and being a part of society use to mean even a dog had more rights than women and blacks, and many were pleased with it.

Don't cross me on this subject. I've studied this subject since before I was still a youngster, and have studied it ever since.

The constitution says that "...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States" -Under the United States: that means in the federal government. The states aren't bound by that clause; they didn't operate by it; and the federal government made no move to change that after the ratification process. Why? Because the states have every right to lean toward one religion or another. That's because they're sovereign; coequal with the federal government.

So, it's not illegal. You obviously need to take several courses in constitutional law.

I have. The Constitution is the most high law in America, and no state law can go against it, as they are all bound by it.
If the Constitution were to define marriage as one man, one woman, and made gay marriage illegal, then it would be impossible for ANY state to have legal gay marriage. That is why alot of people currently want gay marriage to be a state issue.

We're talking about America: not medieval Europe. And the fact is that the predominant Christian population that always has been predominant in the US (then and today) were willing the new government be formed on a secular and liberal basis.

I know. But Christians have not always made a society safe for all religions. Had the founding fathers been predominantly Christian, it would probably still be the same way today.

Anyway, a treaty between two nations ceases to be valid when one of the signers ceases to exist. As a matter if fact, it ceased to be valid 8 years after the signing. It is a half-baked argument.

Actually, some treaties have a defined period of time, depending on the situation. It can be a simple over night cease fire for supplies to reach war refugees, or two nations forming an alliance, or a number of other things. But the point is, be the treaty of Tripoli void or valid, the fact still remains it was clearly stated that America was not established on Christian principles. That is undeniable.

No. I was expressing an opinion, not considering my faith, that you have no appreciation for the great freedom you have.

Myself, being a male with hair down to my shoulders, a goatee a few inches long, little work experience, and no certifications or college degrees, it is rather hard for me to get a job. I don't seem to quite fit in to societies norms, so the amount of freedoms I can freely exercise drops. It goes the same for alot of minority groups, such as a gay man who can be legally fired in many states just for being gay.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Luke, I used to wear my hair down to my belt loops. I have tatoos over half my body. My Son is very well paid and has a beard and hair half way down his back. Most skilled trades don't care what you look like.

 

[yossarian22]

The only time secular, and democratic ideals of government were introduced in a Muslim ciuntry was after WWI, and now they're reversing their progress. Jews segregate themselves.

What is your point?
Neither of these bits of information support your argument that atheist, Islamic, or Jewish settlers would not have been tolerant of other religions. There is absolutely no reason to assume any hypothetical settlers would follow past governments.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most skilled trades don't care what you look like.

Do note the part I lack in the work experience and do not have any certifications and college degrees. My appearance just makes it harder to get a job any where else.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Do note the part I lack in the work experience and do not have any certifications and college degrees. My appearance just makes it harder to get a job any where else.

So? Having a pulse, half a brain and an interest in learning and showing up on time each day is the biggest requirements to be a construction worker.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I can't convince people who have decided that they're the poor victims of the Christians, Muslims, Jew, etc. Who can't appreciate the freedom they have.

No, there will never be complete peace. But the only persecution is in the Middle East or in Atheist societies such as China.

Just put it this way, you're non-religious and not dead. You're vocal about it, and not dead. Do you want to know real persecuted peope? Christians in Saudi Arabia and China.

That statement of yours makes me furious. You have more freedom then you deserve.

It is easy to hear when the "other" groups--Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.--are the ones who are taking away the rights of others. It is hard to hear when one's own group--conservative Christians--are the ones doing it. But hard to hear does not make it any less true.

Also, these examples, while true to an extent, are lopsided in their presentation, particularly the strawman of atheism in China. Religious and other groups the world over can be on both the giving and receiving in of bullying or persecution. See the Jews in the 20th century for a classic example.

Finally, persecution is an extreme example; bullying "other" groups carries a wide array of behaviors, including endless harassing questions, denial of work opportunities, social isolation, hate speech, etc. I have personally witnessed Christians do all of these at some point, yet I have never once seen an atheist do it to a Christian, ever (and yes that includes endless harassing questions).

Oh, and the highlighted sentence is downright terrifying--and demonstrates my point very nicely.

Yeah, I know. I certainly won't post any cartoons of Mohammed.

Jews, as I said, segregate themselves so they can practice their religion. Which means, though they don't impose it, they're no different the Puritans who segregated themselves in New England.

When's the last time American Jews accused someone of being a witch and hanged them?

When's the last time forced everyone outside their sect to carry a Torah around and have certain passages memorized?

When's the last time American Muslims did either one of these things (with the Qu'ran instead)?

Don't get me wrong, Islam and Judaism on a global scale have a far less-than-perfect track record. But this thread is all about what is going on inside America, where Christianity has more to answer for than all other religions (and lack thereof) combined.

Well, many Christians evangelize because we look at the Bible and see a commission to win souls. Now, would you call evangelization interfering with your personal lives? The thing is it's our constitutional right: "Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

1. Why do many evangelists feel the need to be so in-our-faces about it? If the Holy Spirit is as powerful as you claim him to be, shouldn't you guys be able to just relax and let the Spirit do his thing?

2. What happens if we say "no" to a request to become a Christian? Will you respect OUR rights concerning freedom of religion?

Nope. We proselyte quite ferverently, but we don't impose our religion on you. And, as I said, we have a right to proselyte under the First Amendment.

Again, if you call that imposition, then you don't deserve the freedom you have as you can't appreciate it

The underlined sentence is total BS. You impose your religion in the form of:

-Creationism and "Intelligent Design."
-Abstinence-only education.
-Forbidding gay marriage.
-Constantly spreading lies and hate speech about other religions and atheism.
-Being soft on discrimination based on religion or lack thereof, such as with the Boy Scouts.
-Being soft on environmental destruction (although this is one area where some evangelists are finally coming around).
-Being soft on documented practices of inconsistency and even racism in the American Injustice System.
-Being soft on child abuse, in the name of "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
-Forcing people to have limited access to inherently harmless entertainment, calling it a "Culture of Death."
-Being soft on real destruction that really does kill civilians of all ages.

In short, evangelists all to often single out harmless behaviors that they simply find "offensive" but are soft on the others that have life-damaging consequences for the non-consenting. And again, the highlighted sentence supports my point...and freaks me out.

This is not revelation.

I decided 40 years ago that I most definitely would have been a Tory during the revolution.

Yes, the Founding Fathers were liberal to the point of revolutionary -so they strove for a government that would be secular. I don't deny that. The thing they had no control over is whether or not the US was a Christian nation -that's up to the people to decide, and the vast majority of society was Christian. Still is.

You realize that had we remained colonies, we would have turned into Britain's ******* (illegitimate) child? You remember from history what they did to their other colonies, right? And you saw all those laws they passed against us in the years leading up to independence, right? Do you realize that was, in all likelihood, just the beginning of what would have happened to us?

 

[SFT26]

This is a God hating Nation.

 

[Autodidact]

Jews segregate themselves.

Really? Do you have any evidence that Jews choose to live in greater segregation than non-Jews? Aren't there Jews all over the world well-integrated into American, Mexican, Cuban, French, Argentinian, and even Russian society?
To the extent that Jews are segregated, do you think that might reflect over a thousand years of segregation forced upon us?

 

[Autodidact]

First of all, the treaty says the US GOVERNMENT wasn't founded on Christianity, and that I'd agree with. The nation however was. I've already made clear why.

The United States is a Christian nation because the vast majority of the people are Christians and Christianity has had a long-lasting effect.



Look it up: I'm right.

The treaty is irrelevant; it ceased to be relevant 8 years after its signing, and now that the opposite nation doesn't exist anymore, the treaty isn't valid.

The United States is a white nation because the majority of the people are white.

 

[Luke_17:2]

The United States is a white nation because the majority of the people are white.

It is an Anglophone nation, and its culture is most definitely predominated by European influence.

Really? Do you have any evidence that Jews choose to live in greater segregation than non-Jews? Aren't there Jews all over the world well-integrated into American, Mexican, Cuban, French, Argentinian, and even Russian society?
To the extent that Jews are segregated, do you think that might reflect over a thousand years of segregation forced upon us?

Jews segregate themselves into Jewish neigborhoods so they can live according to their beliefs without worry. -Very specific beliefs that would be impossible to follow in a gentile neighborhood. It depends on the level of Judaism they practice. But I don't blame them either way; but the fact is that they do.

And I'm not going to provide evidence for a known fact because an ignorant person chooses to be ignorant.

 

[Sunstone]

This is a God hating Nation.

Yup! And that's precisely why 85% of Americans describe themselves as Christian. You can be sure Christians hate God. It's just the natural order of things for folks who describe themselves as Christian to hate God. Thanks for your insight! Did Ann Coulter tell you to say that?