America is a secular nation.

[Smoke]

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”

“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son andonly Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
[prayers from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]​

Sandy, I understand how you could be taken in by this, since it's repeated ad nauseam by people who claim Washington was religious. But it doesn't wash.

I don't understand why people are so desperate to prove George Washington's supposed piety in the first place. They're unashamed to cite myth and outright fraud in their quest. They're so desperate that they'll even trot out the story that he wrote out some prayers when he was twenty years old, as if that sheds light on the convictions of the mature man. I don't get it. The reason the "George Washington Prayer Book" is so important to them is that it's one of the few overt expressions of personal piety ascribed to Washington.

Unfortunately for them, the manuscript, which is based on prayers from an English prayer book and was supposedly found in an old trunk a century after Washington's death, was debunked generations ago. While it may have some connection to the Washington family (if you can take the seller's word for it), there's no evidence at all that it has any connection to George Washington, and it is not in Washington's handwriting.

 

[Sunstone]

Thomas Paine wasn't a founding father, and his opinion counts for nothing, therefore.

I'm just curious what unholy source you have for such an evidently false claim?

 

[Autodidact]

I always think that when supporters of a claim (not you, Sandy, but the people who sold you this bunk) have to resort to lying, it pretty much undermines the credibility of the claim itself.

 

[Somkid]

I think the founding fathers had something different in mind but it took a wrong turn. In any event yes, I do think America is a very secular nation and I know I had to leave the country when the president started using words like "evil", "god" and "holy war" to describe his feelings about the Middle East.

 

[yossarian22]

Thomas Paine wasn't a founding father, and his opinion counts for nothing, therefore.

Without the pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would have been wielded in vain.
~ John Adams (I think)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Unfortunately for them, the manuscript, which is based on prayers from an English prayer book and was supposedly found in an old trunk a century after Washington's death, was debunked generations ago. While it may have some connection to the Washington family (if you can take the seller's word for it), there's no evidence at all that it has any connection to George Washington, and it is not in Washington's handwriting.

Cite your references please.

 

[tomspug]

Given the ENORMOUS amount of evidence to prove "We the People" live in a secular nation, I will be making several post as I give more evidence, quotes, and wording from the Constitution.

In comparison to what? The Middle East?

In comparison to Europe, we are hardly secular. Almost all of Americans have AT LEAST attended church. Most of Americans adhere to some sort of religion. Just because our government has separation of church and state doesn't make the country secular. We have a government that was founded by Christians and is still run mostly by Christians (name one presidential candidate for '08 that didn't call himself a Christian). Our law system is a mixture of Jewish law and benevolent philosophy.

The only 'secularism' I see anywhere in the United States is on college campuses, which is hardly definitive of our nation. Anywhere else gives the appearance of secularism because we desire it to be so (for example, government and media).

 

[Smoke]

Cite your references please.

It's just part of the vast store of trivia I carry around in my brain where other people have job skills, people skills, etc. However, I was about to google up a couple references pretty quickly:

PolitiFact, which fact checks candidate statements, said this when Duncan Hunter made the claim about the prayer book:

Except that’s not true. Washington scholar Rupert Hughes wrote in 1926 that no evidence connects Washington to this prayer book, which was found nearly a century after his death in a old trunk. Hughes consulted a penmanship expert who proved it wasn’t even in Washington’s handwriting.

“We are very confident that this prayer book is not Washington’s prayer book,” Chase said.

(Source: PolitiFact | Hunter perpetuates common myth)
​

Also Franklin Steiner wrote in The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936):

Some 30 years ago it was proclaimed that in his youth he composed a prayer book for his own use, containing a prayer for five days, beginning with Sunday and ending with Thursday. The manuscript of this prayer book was said to have been found among the contents of an old trunk. It was printed and facsimiles published. Clergymen read it from the altar, one of them saying it contained so much "spirituality" that he had to stop, as he could not control his emotions while reading it.

Yet, while this prayer book was vociferously proclaimed to have been written by Washington, there was not an iota of evidence that he ever had anything to do with it, or that it even ever belonged to him. A little investigation soon pricked the bubble. Worthington C. Ford, who had handled more of Washington's manuscripts than any other man except Washington himself, declared that the penmanship was not that of washington. Rupert Hughes (Washington, vol. 1, p. 658) gives facsimile specimens of the handwriting in the prayer book side by side with known specimens of Washington's penmanship at the time the prayer book was supposed to have been written. A glance proves that they are not by the same hand.

Then in the prayer book manuscript all of the words are spelled correctly, while Washington was a notoriously poor speller. But the greatest blow it received was when the Smithsonian Institute refused to accept it as a genuine Washington relic. That Washington did not compose it was proved by Dr. W.A. Croffutt, a newspaper correspondent of the Capital, who traced the source of some of the prayers to an old prayer brook in the Congressional Library printed, in the reign of James the First.

(Source: The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents)

​

 

[McBell]

In comparison to Europe, we are hardly secular. Almost all of Americans have AT LEAST attended church.

Oh yes.
EVERYONE knows that merely walking into a church makes a nation non-secular.

So much for all the "True Christian" claims, right?

Most of Americans adhere to some sort of religion.

And?
No offense, but so what?
The fact is that there are many many things that many of those "religious" people dislike and/or consider 'secular' is a matter of government policy.
For example, abortion.

Just because our government has separation of church and state doesn't make the country secular.

Perhaps not.
But the enforcement of it does.

We have a government that was founded by Christians and is still run mostly by Christians (name one presidential candidate for '08 that didn't call himself a Christian). Our law system is a mixture of Jewish law and benevolent philosophy.

The thing is, the USA was not founded by Christians.
It matters not how many times you say it.

Back to the "no 'true' Christians" hypocrisy?

The only 'secularism' I see anywhere in the United States is on college campuses, which is hardly definitive of our nation. Anywhere else gives the appearance of secularism because we desire it to be so (for example, government and media).

Then you needs open your eyes.
Try looking without the special glasses...

 

[doppelganger]

America is a pluralistic nation. To function as such, it must not have a state religion of any kind other than the shared belief that religion and government should remain separate.

 

[Autodidact]

In comparison to what? The Middle East?

In comparison to Europe, we are hardly secular. Almost all of Americans have AT LEAST attended church. Most of Americans adhere to some sort of religion. Just because our government has separation of church and state doesn't make the country secular. We have a government that was founded by Christians and is still run mostly by Christians (name one presidential candidate for '08 that didn't call himself a Christian). Our law system is a mixture of Jewish law and benevolent philosophy.

The only 'secularism' I see anywhere in the United States is on college campuses, which is hardly definitive of our nation. Anywhere else gives the appearance of secularism because we desire it to be so (for example, government and media).

"Secular" does not mean atheist. It refers to a system of government that is neutral as to religion, in which religion is neither mandated nor prohibited, such as we have here in the United States. Our system of government is founded principally on Enlightenment ideas which are secular in nature. Unless you want to tell me where in the Tanakh there is described either a Constitutional or representative form of government?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We have a government that was founded by Christians......

Actually, most of the Founding Father's were opposed to Christianity.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's just part of the vast store of trivia I carry around in my brain where other people have job skills, people skills, etc. However, I was about to google up a couple references pretty quickly:


PolitiFact, which fact checks candidate statements, said this when Duncan Hunter made the claim about the prayer book:

Except that’s not true. Washington scholar Rupert Hughes wrote in 1926 that no evidence connects Washington to this prayer book, which was found nearly a century after his death in a old trunk. Hughes consulted a penmanship expert who proved it wasn’t even in Washington’s handwriting.​

“We are very confident that this prayer book is not Washington’s prayer book,” Chase said.​

(Source: PolitiFact | Hunter perpetuates common myth)​

Also Franklin Steiner wrote in The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936):

Some 30 years ago it was proclaimed that in his youth he composed a prayer book for his own use, containing a prayer for five days, beginning with Sunday and ending with Thursday. The manuscript of this prayer book was said to have been found among the contents of an old trunk. It was printed and facsimiles published. Clergymen read it from the altar, one of them saying it contained so much "spirituality" that he had to stop, as he could not control his emotions while reading it.​

Yet, while this prayer book was vociferously proclaimed to have been written by Washington, there was not an iota of evidence that he ever had anything to do with it, or that it even ever belonged to him. A little investigation soon pricked the bubble. Worthington C. Ford, who had handled more of Washington's manuscripts than any other man except Washington himself, declared that the penmanship was not that of washington. Rupert Hughes (Washington, vol. 1, p. 658) gives facsimile specimens of the handwriting in the prayer book side by side with known specimens of Washington's penmanship at the time the prayer book was supposed to have been written. A glance proves that they are not by the same hand.​

Then in the prayer book manuscript all of the words are spelled correctly, while Washington was a notoriously poor speller. But the greatest blow it received was when the Smithsonian Institute refused to accept it as a genuine Washington relic. That Washington did not compose it was proved by Dr. W.A. Croffutt, a newspaper correspondent of the Capital, who traced the source of some of the prayers to an old prayer brook in the Congressional Library printed, in the reign of James the First.​

(Source: The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents)​

I'll accept that for now. I'm careful to not try and present false quotes and at the time could find nothing to contradict the authenticity of that reference. Now, how about the other quotes?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Actually, most of the Founding Father's were opposed to Christianity.

That's incorrect. They were opposed to religious organizations being in control of government.

 

[Autodidact]

I'll accept that for now. I'm careful to not try and present false quotes and at the time could find nothing to contradict the authenticity of that reference. Now, how about the other quotes?

What about the idea that if what they were saying was true, why would they feel the need to make stuff up?

 

[Autodidact]

That's incorrect. They were opposed to religious organizations being in control of government.

Just want you to know sandy, that earlier today I tried to post just about exactly this, but the server wouldn't take my post. I think this is accurate.

 

[Smoke]

Now, how about the other quotes?

As I said, Washington thought religion was an excellent thing for the common people. He wasn't at all opposed to religion. He just wasn't that interested in it personally, especially not compared to Adams and Jefferson.

 

[rocka21]

Why do presidents but there hand on the bible when they are inaugurated?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Washington ...wasn't at all opposed to religion. He just wasn't that interested in it personally...

That explains why he attended church regularly and at one point served as a member of the vestry for his local parrish?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why do presidents but there hand on the bible when they are inaugurated?

It's a tradition. I'm sure that if they refused it would cause too much controversy. Bad form for the first act of their presidency.