sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
If fill in the blank becomes president all things will go on as they have since the fathers fell asleep.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
America is a secular nation.
- Thread starter Blindinglight
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Very few of them were Christian, and did not live by Christian morals.
The records they left, there lifestyles, and records others left about them prove they were not Christian.
Luke_17:2
Fundamental Bible-thumper
I'll deal point by point
Half the founders were not deists. Most of them were indeed Christians. Granted, there were quite a few deists, and they were some of the most prominent (Franklin, Adams, etc). And also granted the Christians in the Convention (with exception of those like Hamilton) were for secular government -not necessarily secular nation. But don't rewrite history by saying most were deists: it's simply not true.
The Treaty of Tripoli is irrelevant. The nation it was signed with was a Moslem nation that no longer exists, and is therefore no longer valid. It was obviously an attempt to stroke the back of that Moslem nation by saying we weren't a Christian nation. Which is untrue no matter how many treaties with now debunk nations are signed.
The Constituion is proof of secular government. That is the federal constitution clearly disallows a chuch-based government. Though that doesn't mean that religions can't influence (Christianity obviously has) government, it simply means that there's supposed to be (in Madison's words) "a modest barrier".
The sepratation of Chuch and state was originally not applicable to the states. And all of the original states (except Pennsylvania) dictated that you had to profess faith in God (That is the Lord God of Israel for clarification) to hold certain offices. Indeed, you had to profess subscription in certain denominations to hold office. All of the preambles of all the state constitutions say something about invoking the blessings of almighty God. -Except Hawaii which brings up a volcanoe if I remember correctly. The fact is that the separation of chuch and state was an issue of national-federal government; not the states. The founding fathers believed that the states had rights to decide for themselves.
Something that undisputedly throws down the anyway debunk Treaty of Tripoli is a Supreme Court ruling in 1892 in the case Holy Trinity Church Vs. The United States. It ruled that the United States is a Christian nation. But note, the government isn't
In conclusion. The United States is a Christian nation because the vast majority of the population was and is Christian or Catholic, our heritage is obviously Christian (Mayflower Compact, etc), and not to mention it's what the Supreme Court said (we're all so willing to follow the Court like sheep when it rules to the left). But the government is obviously secular for reasons that have been mentioned by me, and other people in the thread.
So:
Christian nation
Secular government
Get over it. Christians built this society, and we built it so non-Christians can live here in peace. Would Muslims do that? Would atheists do that? Would Jews do that? Absoulutely not.
Half the founders were not deists. Most of them were indeed Christians. Granted, there were quite a few deists, and they were some of the most prominent (Franklin, Adams, etc). And also granted the Christians in the Convention (with exception of those like Hamilton) were for secular government -not necessarily secular nation. But don't rewrite history by saying most were deists: it's simply not true.
The Treaty of Tripoli is irrelevant. The nation it was signed with was a Moslem nation that no longer exists, and is therefore no longer valid. It was obviously an attempt to stroke the back of that Moslem nation by saying we weren't a Christian nation. Which is untrue no matter how many treaties with now debunk nations are signed.
The Constituion is proof of secular government. That is the federal constitution clearly disallows a chuch-based government. Though that doesn't mean that religions can't influence (Christianity obviously has) government, it simply means that there's supposed to be (in Madison's words) "a modest barrier".
The sepratation of Chuch and state was originally not applicable to the states. And all of the original states (except Pennsylvania) dictated that you had to profess faith in God (That is the Lord God of Israel for clarification) to hold certain offices. Indeed, you had to profess subscription in certain denominations to hold office. All of the preambles of all the state constitutions say something about invoking the blessings of almighty God. -Except Hawaii which brings up a volcanoe if I remember correctly. The fact is that the separation of chuch and state was an issue of national-federal government; not the states. The founding fathers believed that the states had rights to decide for themselves.
Something that undisputedly throws down the anyway debunk Treaty of Tripoli is a Supreme Court ruling in 1892 in the case Holy Trinity Church Vs. The United States. It ruled that the United States is a Christian nation. But note, the government isn't
In conclusion. The United States is a Christian nation because the vast majority of the population was and is Christian or Catholic, our heritage is obviously Christian (Mayflower Compact, etc), and not to mention it's what the Supreme Court said (we're all so willing to follow the Court like sheep when it rules to the left). But the government is obviously secular for reasons that have been mentioned by me, and other people in the thread.
So:
Christian nation
Secular government
Get over it. Christians built this society, and we built it so non-Christians can live here in peace. Would Muslims do that? Would atheists do that? Would Jews do that? Absoulutely not.
yossarian22
Resident Schizophrenic
I agreed with you until here.
What sort of reasoning gave you this conclusion?
yossarian22
Resident Schizophrenic
And this supports your conclusion that atheist, Jewish, or Islamic settlers who were seeking religious and political freedom would not be as tolerant as the original settlers?
Anyways, the people who came on the Mayflower were not tolerant at all. How do you think Rhode Island was formed?
I believe Luke needs some more frubals! Welcome brother!
Luke_17:2
Fundamental Bible-thumper
The only time secular, and democratic ideals of government were introduced in a Muslim ciuntry was after WWI, and now they're reversing their progress.
Jews segregate themselves.
No they weren't tolerant. But they were original settlers seeking freedom.
Take the Quakers or Hugenots though.
Smoke
Done here.
Make sure you distinguish between the two.
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
I, too, strongly object to these claims. Christians built America so that other religions could live in peace? Puh-lease. Peace for other religions--great as I would love it, it just isn't a reality in today's society.
And I would be very careful where you go with the attack on Muslims, atheists, and Jews. American atheists, for one, have been long saying that people have every right to practice their religion so long as it does not interfere with the personal lives of others. Conservative Christians, by contrast, have done a great deal to impose their views on those who do not always accept them.
Look, there's no denying that a massive portion of early Americans were Christians. But our Founding Fathers were disproportionately liberal as compared to the population as a whole. As an example, in the middle of 1776, the nation was roughly split 33-33-33 on whether to break from England, stay with them, or just "whatever." (In that day, the patriots held the liberal position, and the tories were the conservatives.) But the decision to break away was, of course, unanimous.
That is fricking hilarious, what are you talking about? What "course" are you talking about? Ethnocentric much?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
The early colonies were Christian insofar as they were comprised primarily of Christian Europeans. However, England, Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, the Prussian states, etc. we are all Christian nations as well.
In other words......so what? All this tells us is that the majority of the individuals in the colonies and subsequently the states followed a religion of some Christian denomination. Jay has rightly already pointed out that this tells us nothing of polity.
So, the correct statement is America is a nation of a whole lot of Christians but not a Christian nation. If we were, there wouldn't have been so much activity of Christians trying to break away from other ..... Christians.
In other words......so what? All this tells us is that the majority of the individuals in the colonies and subsequently the states followed a religion of some Christian denomination. Jay has rightly already pointed out that this tells us nothing of polity.
So, the correct statement is America is a nation of a whole lot of Christians but not a Christian nation. If we were, there wouldn't have been so much activity of Christians trying to break away from other ..... Christians.
Are you talking about what we typically think of as the "founding fathers"? If so, name the Christians that founded the nation? Then name the the other founding fathers that were not Christian.
The course I am talking about would be a soverighn country with secure borders that documents who enters the country before we let people in. That keeps a presence in the middle east as well for our security.
A course that understands that we are a melting pot and should include not exclude folks from living here and those folks should not have to hide, drive on the road without insurance and a license or escape taxes.
A course that understands that health care is a responsibility and not a right. Should the government be responsible to keep everyone alive till there 100 years old? Who should have to pay for this?
A course that educates it's people and closes down unproductive schools and gives vouchers to every child so they can attend the school of their choice, not sent to a day care center that teaches at the pace of the slowest student.
A course that rewards hard work and playing by the rules and pays teachers what they are truly worth. A course that dictates that you are either part of the solution or part of the problem and every citizen has worth and should have an opportunity to succeed in life, not a subsistant free ride.
A course that is tolerant of other religions and points of view and focuses on similarities and not differences between it's citizens. A course that is inclusive not exclusive.
I could go on, but I hope you have my drift.
Oh, I get your drift alright but do you get that your drift is not in fact "the majority of people running the world"?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
See the Soviet Union.
See a number of Western European nations.
See Medicare, Social Security and the AARP. Who is the AARP? The most conservative bunch of social robbers you'll ever meet.
This is actually something worth pursuing. Our education standards are horrific. Personally I think we would be better off reducing age of graduation and increased responsibility placed upon individuals at a younger age. Anything rather than this teaching people how to take a test for twelve years. What a joke.
I find public education teachers across the state to be paid rather well. Especially considering the relative amount paid to other public servants. Heck, many are overpaid and lack the wit to actually teach in my opinion. Black and white courses serve no purpose.
This is a good idea. I would add a course that teaches stringent critical thinking.
I think many of them are hit or miss. Some are good ideas while others do not truly reflect anything unique to American culture. Add in so many other factors and we hardly stand as a model to follow.
The reformation and religious wars were a terrible upheaval. Hatred, genocide and intolerance. N. America was not spared. The founding fathers were acutely aware of how pernicious religion could be and sought to hobble it without enraging any particular faction.
The US was born of the Enlightenment, as an experiment in tolerance and government by reason rather than religion; a Humanist endeavor. The founding fathers feared religion and took pains to assure the US would operate as a secular state where religion had no coercive influence and all were free to believe as their consciences moved them.
Anyone seeking to enshrine any particular religious outlook in law is anathema to all things American and a serious threat to the republic.
The US was born of the Enlightenment, as an experiment in tolerance and government by reason rather than religion; a Humanist endeavor. The founding fathers feared religion and took pains to assure the US would operate as a secular state where religion had no coercive influence and all were free to believe as their consciences moved them.
Anyone seeking to enshrine any particular religious outlook in law is anathema to all things American and a serious threat to the republic.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That would be unconstitutional. A state can indeed make their own laws, but the laws as defined by the constitution are above state laws. Im not going to say professing faith in Yehway in some places as a requirement for office never happened. However, it was illegal for such a thing to have happened in this nation.
This statement is simply childish to believe. If you want to compare modern Middle Eastern Muslim nations to America being a nation for all religions, please do take into consideration that in Medieval Europe you could be killed for not being a Christian.
Even until relativity recently in England it was required to profess faith in the official state church.
That is why the first Europeans settled America.
Then they done the same thing to those who were here first. Convert or die.
The treaty of Tripoli clearly states that, ""...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...." And that was signed some of the Founding Fathers. George Washington even oversaw it's writing and signing. And John Adams was head of Congress when it was signed. And just because the Muslim leaders that also signed aren't still around, nor are there nations, the fact still remains it was denied in 1797 that America was founded on Christianity.
Playing by the rules and being a part of the solution use to mean for women to remain silent and for all blacks in this nation to live in fear. And many people then were pleased with the current course.
I wouldn't quite say of Occult origin, but no doubt several secret societies have played a tremendous role in the formation of America.