America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People

[BSM1]

Okay but below 4% bit ignores a pretty big farce. People are working but where? And manufacturing is slightly on the up sweep. No where near recovering even a small percentage of what has been lost.

The article title is right in another way it doesn't even address. The inequality of location. My home town has 3 major employers. One closed last year, one has announced that it is closing in a year. And the third, where I work, isn't all that far behind. But don't worry, service jobs are a-plenty. Every gas station has a help wanted sign in the window.

But...but...they are working. This could not be said during the previous administration. If people are working then they will be demanding product to spend their cash on. This means someone has to make the product thus producing more jobs, income, and tax base. Not rocket surgery.

 

[Revoltingest]

Here's why we will always have debt and never get out of debt:

It's long and really fascinating. But just watch first 2 minutes of it to get my point.

P.S. This country is run by pirates. Skull & Bones.

The Federal Government conducts many functions using corporations, eg,
The Post Office, Fannie Mae (FNMA), Freddie Mac (FHLMC).
Government has control.
So It's not at all unusual or controversial that the Federal Reserve Bank is a corporation.
Ref....
Federal Reserve Bank - Wikipedia
Legal status[edit]
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks were established as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system. They are organized much like private corporations—possibly leading to some confusion about ownership.

The Federal Reserve Banks have an intermediate legal status, with some features of private corporations and some features of public federal agencies. The United States has an interest in the Federal Reserve Banks as tax-exempt federally created instrumentalities whose profits belong to the federal government, but this interest is not proprietary.[8] In Lewis v. United States,[9] the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that: "The Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the FTCA [the Federal Tort Claims Act], but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." The opinion went on to say, however, that: "The Reserve Banks have properly been held to be federal instrumentalities for some purposes." Another relevant decision is Scott v. Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City,[8] in which the distinction is made between Federal Reserve Banks, which are federally created instrumentalities, and the Board of Governors, which is a federal agency.

Regarding the structural relationship between the twelve Federal Reserve banks and the various commercial (member) banks, political science professor Michael D. Reagan has written that:[10]

... the "ownership" of the Reserve Banks by the commercial banks is symbolic; they do not exercise the proprietary control associated with the concept of ownership nor share, beyond the statutory dividend, in Reserve Bank "profits." ... Bank ownership and election at the base are therefore devoid of substantive significance, despite the superficial appearance of private bank control that the formal arrangement creates.



I have plenty of problems with the Fed Reserve. But the real reason we're
perpetually in debt is that government loves spending more than it takes from us.
Why is this?
It's what the voters want....not that they want the debt, but they want governemnt
to provide them with more than they pay for. An intractable problem, eh.

 

[Stevicus]

America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People

Comments? Observations? Uninformed Rants from Folks Who Didn't Read the Article?

Well, America is definitely regressing and slowly diminishing in quality of life. I've heard some compare it to the decline of Rome. I can get that the rich don't care about the working classes, but I don't think they even care about America itself. They seem content in turning America into a debt-ridden, poverty-stricken third world country. Our educational system is sub-standard. Our industrial base is shrinking. Our transportation infrastructure is crumbling. Our communication systems and our technologies are starting to lag behind the rest of the world.

It would be one thing if the rich were getting richer and actually producing something of value and worth to the economy, but they're not even doing that. At least the capitalists of yesteryear built industries that benefited America, but capitalists of today are getting rich by selling out America. Their attitude borders on treason against America, because America is clearly worse off now than it was 40 years ago.

And before the usual suspects start chiming in with their usual BS (you know who you are), this isn't about bleeding heart liberals crying over the plight of the poor. This is about America as a whole going down the drain due to corruption and mismanagement. I blame Reagan, Milton Friedman, Alan Greenspan, and all their blind, myopic, sycophantic followers. To actively and willingly embrace policies which bring harm to America is anti-American.

 

[Sunstone]

Doesn't this happen every time there is a technological or industrial change?

That's a good question. Technological and industrial change certainly plays a part in the growing gap between rich and poor here in America -- and around the world. For instance, about 85% of the net decline in manufacturing jobs in the US since the Great Recession of 2008 can be attributed to robots replacing workers in factories, although unfavorable trade tariffs get more of the blame.

However, a key factor in the gap (many would say the key factor) is apparently not being caused by technological or industrial changes. That's the split between wages and productivity.

From about the end of World War II to the end of the 60s -- and then, to a lesser extent, into the 70s -- wages in America were closely tied to worker productivity. Everyone has heard the old expression, "You get paid what you're worth", and that's a crude way of describing the relationship between wages and productivity. During the period in question, whenever productivity rose, wages rose. For most of the period, workers actually took home about half the increases productivity while the other half went to the owners. It produced the American Middle Class, which became the bedrock of American society, political stability, and consumer driven economic growth.

Then, perhaps beginning around 1970, but definitely accelerating by the 80s, wages became separated from productivity. Productivity continued to grow by leaps and bounds, but wages for the middle class grew only slightly, and they actually declined a bit in dollars adjusted for inflation for the poor.

It is that, more than anything else, that is the immediate or proximate cause of the huge and growing gap between rich and poor in America. The gap, that according to the article, is splitting the country into two nations: A first world nation and a third world nation.

There are a few reasons for the gap, but perhaps the one that is most often identified as a major reason is the decimation of the unions that began under Reagan. The unions were the ones responsible for negotiating pay raises for the workers, of course, and they were for a long time successful in negotiating for the workers to take home about half the increases in productivity. But when they were decimated, they lost their power to consistently do that.

So, you see, technological and industrial change may be a factor in driving the growing gap between rich and poor, but it's not the sole factor, and it's not the most important factor. We'd still have a huge and growing gap even without it.

 

[Sunstone]

The disappearing middle class is due to republican policies. Take the last tax bill for proof. Did the middle class worker get the majority of the tax benefits? No. Republicans gave it to the wealthy, because that's their normal MO.

If you want to see the middle class stop vanishing, stop supporting the party making it happen.

It's not as simple as that. There are a lot of factors involved, including the rise of neoliberalism on the Democratic side of the aisle. They might as well be Republicans as far as their votes go.

 

[Sunstone]

Well, America is definitely regressing and slowly diminishing in quality of life. I've heard some compare it to the decline of Rome. I can get that the rich don't care about the working classes, but I don't think they even care about America itself. They seem content in turning America into a debt-ridden, poverty-stricken third world country. Our educational system is sub-standard. Our industrial base is shrinking. Our transportation infrastructure is crumbling. Our communication systems and our technologies are starting to lag behind the rest of the world.

It would be one thing if the rich were getting richer and actually producing something of value and worth to the economy, but they're not even doing that. At least the capitalists of yesteryear built industries that benefited America, but capitalists of today are getting rich by selling out America. Their attitude borders on treason against America, because America is clearly worse off now than it was 40 years ago.

And before the usual suspects start chiming in with their usual BS (you know who you are), this isn't about bleeding heart liberals crying over the plight of the poor. This is about America as a whole going down the drain due to corruption and mismanagement. I blame Reagan, Milton Friedman, Alan Greenspan, and all their blind, myopic, sycophantic followers. To actively and willingly embrace policies which bring harm to America is anti-American.

In the end, as America goes down the tubes, the rich will suffer too. It's not even in their own best interests to continue the policies that are destroying us. But human foresightedness is almost always outweighed by immediate opportunities for gain. That's what the rich have been doing Selling the future down the drain for dollars today.

 

[Sunstone]

But...but...they are working. This could not be said during the previous administration. If people are working then they will be demanding product to spend their cash on. This means someone has to make the product thus producing more jobs, income, and tax base. Not rocket surgery.

The vast bulk of jobs created under Obama and now Trump have been relatively low paying jobs. This has created a dying Middle Class and an increasing poor class. A middle class can always drive more economic growth than a poor class.

 

[YmirGF]

Not surprisingly, I'm more with @BSM1 than his detractors on this. Are there serious issues that need to be dealt with? Yes. While the massive debt is problematic, as @Revoltingest opined, I'm still given to go with something that seems overlooked in all this. One of the most peculiar features of the American experiment is the inherent resiliencey and ability to adapt. That adaptation will necessarily hurt some along the way, but will eventually pull most everyone out of the economic doldrums. For example, America is not currently doing great, but it is still doing well when compared to the EU. It's still the "go to" place on the planet.

 

[Sunstone]

...the economic doldrums.

I admire your faith in America, Paul, but "doldrums" surely understates the trends of the past 40 or more years. You'd expect mere doldrums to be over by now, wouldn't you.

While I agree with that America has historically been resilient in dealing with crisis, I think the issue now boils down to whether we have the political will as a people to confront and deal with the problems. The deep divisions in our country do not reassure me that we do. Still, I could be wrong about that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not surprisingly, I'm more with @BSM1 than his detractors on this. Are there serious issues that need to be dealt with? Yes. While the massive debt is problematic, as @Revoltingest opined, I'm still given to go with something that seems overlooked in all this. One of the most peculiar features of the American experiment is the inherent resiliencey and ability to adapt. That adaptation will necessarily hurt some along the way, but will eventually pull most everyone out of the economic doldrums. For example, America is not currently doing great, but it is still doing well when compared to the EU. It's still the "go to" place on the planet.

In what period of history has the country not faced some actual or looming horror?
Yet for several centuries it has survived & even thrived.
So I have concern rather than worry.
I'm not going to become a prepper yet.

 

[Srivijaya]

America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People

Comments? Observations? Uninformed Rants from Folks Who Didn't Read the Article?

With just a few tweaks, this also applies to the UK - I found this quote nailed it:

"The two sectors, notes Temin, have entirely distinct financial systems, residential situations, and educational opportunities. Quite different things happen when they get sick, or when they interact with the law. They move independently of each other. Only one path exists by which the citizens of the low-wage country can enter the affluent one, and that path is fraught with obstacles. Most have no way out."

This is so true. In the UK, the affluent half have no idea how the poor half live and vice-versa. There is a growing split but it seems those at the bottom do not feel empowered enough to agitate for change or are so brainwashed by nationalist sentiment that they consider any challenge to the system to be dangerous and irresponsible.

People have short memories and can't remember when kids got free school milk and free university education (if their parents were low-income) and there were virtually no homeless on our streets. That was all managed at a time of high interest rates and high unemployment. Now according to our financial gurus, employment has never been better and there are wonderfully low interest rates. But oddly the nation can't afford anything any more. Foodbank use is growing, homelessness is massive and young people are burdened with huge debts. In many areas it's virtually impossible to find paid work but benefits are being slashed (including disability). Sorry, no cash.

Brexit's gonna solve it all though. Just keep believing.

 

[Underhill]

But...but...they are working. This could not be said during the previous administration. If people are working then they will be demanding product to spend their cash on. This means someone has to make the product thus producing more jobs, income, and tax base. Not rocket surgery.

Actually we have the exact same problem people complained about in the last administration. Sure, we have some more people working the counter at Arby's but the overall picture is the same. And is about to get worse as the impact of Trumps trade talk is going to come home to roost unless he pulls off some kind of miracle.

 

[Nakosis]

America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People

Comments? Observations? Uninformed Rants from Folks Who Didn't Read the Article?

A couple of disagreements...

FTE sector is making those expenditures more and more costly by defunding public schools and making policies that increase student debt burdens.

The FTE sector doesn't make policy or defund schools. This is the government sector.

The solution called for seems to want to rely on more government or at least government intervention. Except that's who has already put us in this position.

I understand the desire to blame greedy business owners but politicians can be just as greedy. She calls out the FTE sector but ignores the the government sector. It really should be FTEG.

The government support the FTE sector because that is what brings in tax revenue and lobbying money. So I don't see where turning to the government is any solution.

People for the most part are self interested. Doesn't matter whether they are in the FTE sectors or the government. Just as it is natural to point away from yourself to place blame.

 

[Sunstone]

With just a few tweaks, this also applies to the UK - I found this quote nailed it:

"The two sectors, notes Temin, have entirely distinct financial systems, residential situations, and educational opportunities. Quite different things happen when they get sick, or when they interact with the law. They move independently of each other. Only one path exists by which the citizens of the low-wage country can enter the affluent one, and that path is fraught with obstacles. Most have no way out."

This is so true. In the UK, the affluent half have no idea how the poor half live and vice-versa. There is a growing split but it seems those at the bottom do not feel empowered enough to agitate for change or are so brainwashed by nationalist sentiment that they consider any challenge to the system to be dangerous and irresponsible.

People have short memories and can't remember when kids got free school milk and free university education (if their parents were low-income) and there were virtually no homeless on our streets. That was all managed at a time of high interest rates and high unemployment. Now according to our financial gurus, employment has never been better and there are wonderfully low interest rates. But oddly the nation can't afford anything any more. Foodbank use is growing, homelessness is massive and young people are burdened with huge debts. In many areas it's virtually impossible to find paid work but benefits are being slashed (including disability). Sorry, no cash.

Brexit's gonna solve it all though. Just keep believing.

You paint a pretty bleak, but I'm certain fair, picture of the UK these days. I have no idea whether the people in either of our nations will wake up the truth and do something effective to turn things around. I would have at one thought so, but I have become more informed about how the masses are manipulated to believe things that aren't true, and how the technology to do that is outpacing the old fashioned ways of countering such things. Today, people are all but imperious to any attempts to inform them of the facts. Some even believe there are no facts, just opinions.

In the largest sense, this is part of a continuing struggle between elites and common people that has been going on for 5,500 years or more -- ever since the rise of socially stratified societies. The new twist are the technologies to manipulate public opinion, make possible the surveillance of whole populations, etc.

 

[Sunstone]

A couple of disagreements...

FTE sector is making those expenditures more and more costly by defunding public schools and making policies that increase student debt burdens.

The FTE sector doesn't make policy or defund schools. This is the government sector.

The solution called for seems to want to rely on more government or at least government intervention. Except that's who has already put us in this position.

I understand the desire to blame greedy business owners but politicians can be just as greedy. She calls out the FTE sector but ignores the the government sector. It really should be FTEG.

The government support the FTE sector because that is what brings in tax revenue and lobbying money. So I don't see where turning to the government is any solution.

People for the most part are self interested. Doesn't matter whether they are in the FTE sectors or the government. Just as it is natural to point away from yourself to place blame.

I'm curious who you think owns the politicians who run the government. So far as I can see, several lines of evidence come together to strongly support the notion that the politicians and the government are these days beholden to the uber-rich and the major corporations. If so, to claim that "the government creates the problems, not the corporations and the uber-rich" is to be terribly naive.

 

[YmirGF]

I admire your faith in America, Paul, but "doldrums" surely understates the trends of the past 40 or more years. You'd expect mere doldrums to be over by now, wouldn't you.

While I agree with that America has historically been resilient in dealing with crisis, I think the issue now boils down to whether we have the political will as a people to confront and deal with the problems. The deep divisions in our country do not reassure me that we do. Still, I could be wrong about that.

I get that @Sunstone so why is capital flooding into America faster than Honduran migrants? Why is America still the "go to" place on the planet?

 

[BSM1]

Actually we have the exact same problem people complained about in the last administration. Sure, we have some more people working the counter at Arby's but the overall picture is the same. And is about to get worse as the impact of Trumps trade talk is going to come home to roost unless he pulls off some kind of miracle.

Hasn't yet despite the dire warnings of a trade war with China (they blinked). I feel that most people's personal dislike of Trump is clouding their vision as to actual facts. And the last administration would have killed for an unemployment rate of less than 4%.

 

[BSM1]

That's a good question. Technological and industrial change certainly plays a part in the growing gap between rich and poor here in America -- and around the world. For instance, about 85% of the net decline in manufacturing jobs in the US since the Great Recession of 2008 can be attributed to robots replacing workers in factories, although unfavorable trade tariffs get more of the blame.

However, a key factor in the gap (many would say the key factor) is apparently not being caused by technological or industrial changes. That's the split between wages and productivity.

From about the end of World War II to the end of the 60s -- and then, to a lesser extent, into the 70s -- wages in America were closely tied to worker productivity. Everyone has heard the old expression, "You get paid what you're worth", and that's a crude way of describing the relationship between wages and productivity. During the period in question, whenever productivity rose, wages rose. For most of the period, workers actually took home about half the increases productivity while the other half went to the owners. It produced the American Middle Class, which became the bedrock of American society, political stability, and consumer driven economic growth.

Then, perhaps beginning around 1970, but definitely accelerating by the 80s, wages became separated from productivity. Productivity continued to grow by leaps and bounds, but wages for the middle class grew only slightly, and they actually declined a bit in dollars adjusted for inflation for the poor.

It is that, more than anything else, that is the immediate or proximate cause of the huge and growing gap between rich and poor in America. The gap, that according to the article, is splitting the country into two nations: A first world nation and a third world nation.

There are a few reasons for the gap, but perhaps the one that is most often identified as a major reason is the decimation of the unions that began under Reagan. The unions were the ones responsible for negotiating pay raises for the workers, of course, and they were for a long time successful in negotiating for the workers to take home about half the increases in productivity. But when they were decimated, they lost their power to consistently do that.

So, you see, technological and industrial change may be a factor in driving the growing gap between rich and poor, but it's not the sole factor, and it's not the most important factor. We'd still have a huge and growing gap even without it.

Shouldn't the unions share some of the blame for the movement of jobs offshore?

 

[BSM1]

The vast bulk of jobs created under Obama and now Trump have been relatively low paying jobs. This has created a dying Middle Class and an increasing poor class. A middle class can always drive more economic growth than a poor class.

One word: Less than 4 % unemployment. A job is a job. Eventual economic growth will lead to more and higher paying jobs, but you have to start somewhere. The economy was raped by the last administration so it will take a while to recover.

 

[David1967]

The disappearing middle class is due to republican policies. Take the last tax bill for proof. Did the middle class worker get the majority of the tax benefits? No. Republicans gave it to the wealthy, because that's their normal MO.

If you want to see the middle class stop vanishing, stop supporting the party making it happen.

Tytlyf, I disagree. But I give you credit for being consistent.