America

[Shaul]

But we are not absent evidence. Primary source material discussing the action is evidence. It's not proof. The distinction is important.

The point is that there is quite a dearth of such material. One incident with ambiguous and dubious information is too thin a gruel.

 

[Shaul]

Of course there is nothing new, it all happened so long ago.

And a really don't think ad homonym is getting us anywhere. Bye


View attachment 77740

New as in new analysis or evidence. It isn't an ad hominem (note correct spelling) to dispute a proffered argument while not attacking the person. Which is what I did. Nothing I wrote attacked him as a person, just his nonsensical writing. None of which salvages your position that there is such a lack of evidence for the British using smallpox as a weapon against the native Americans.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Feel free to cite a cite that refutes the article. Until then try to be less smug.

Thats already been done.

 

[Shaul]

Thats already been done.

No, it hasn't.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, it hasn't.

Then you aren't reading the thread.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The disease issue was sometimes done intentionally by trading or giving smallpox infested blankets to them. Also, the bison almost went extinct as there was a policy to kill them so as to starve the indigenous. Some of the "war heroes" became as such with how many of the Indians they could kill under their command. Overcrowded reservations were created, and so many of their lands were taken away even after they were promised that they could live on the land originally allocated in peace.

Thus, a very high percentage of indigenous deaths were not from war directly.

I think native nations would be best left to determine that.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The disease issue was sometimes done intentionally by trading or giving smallpox infested blankets to them. Also, the bison almost went extinct as there was a policy to kill them so as to starve the indigenous. Some of the "war heroes" became as such with how many of the Indians they could kill under their command. Overcrowded reservations were created, and so many of their lands were taken away even after they were promised that they could live on the land originally allocated in peace.

Thus, a very high percentage of indigenous deaths were not from war directly.

I dunno about intentional.

They had the science knowledge that smallpox was transferred by blankets in those days?

Germ and viral discovery wasn't around until the late 1890s.

 

[Shaul]

Then you aren't reading the thread.

Prove it. Stop the games and simply repeat the citation.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No, it is not revisionist history to note that the Europeans lacked the understanding and capability to weaponize smallpox. It is a fact that people in the 1700s did not have certain knowledge. Among the knowledge they did not have was knowledge of the nature of germs nor how contagious diseases spread. You want it to be that the European settlers had doctors so that proves something. It doesn't. First off, the native Americans also had access to doctors. Furthermore all of the doctors at that time did not have effective treatment for smallpox. In other words, your point about doctors is useless.

I haven't tried to change the subject at all. The subject I have discussed is that it is a myth that the British used smallpox as a weapon against the native Americans. And it is a myth.

Whilst I think it unlikely small pox was used as an intentional weapon against Native American populations on anything like a regular basis, it's also not true that people in the 1700s lacked the knowledge of spreading it.
Quarantine processes were in place throughout the centuries, as was street cleaning. Innoculation was being practised from the 1720s, and vaccinations were introduced late in the century.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I dunno about intentional.

They had the science knowledge that smallpox was transferred by blankets in those days?

Germ and viral discovery wasn't around until the late 1890s.

Smallpox vaccinations commenced in 1796.
Whilst they weren't aware of the full scientific profile of the disease, they were aware that sick people transmitted it, and that sick people could transmit it indirectly via dirty bandages, clothing, etc.
Quarantining and street cleaning were common practices to try and halt the disease spread throughout the 1700s.

 

[Shaul]

Whilst I think it unlikely small pox was used as an intentional weapon against Native American populations on anything like a regular basis, it's also not true that people in the 1700s lacked the knowledge of spreading it.
Quarantine processes were in place throughout the centuries, as was street cleaning. Innoculation was being practised from the 1720s, and vaccinations were introduced late in the century.

The first smallpox vaccinations did not occur until the 1790s under Dr. Edward Jenner. During the 1760s there were no vaccinations for it. Furthermore the native Americans had access to a similar level of medical expertise via their French supporters.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Prove it. Stop the games and simply repeat the citation.

I'm not the one playing games. I'm not the one who posted a source that's known for a poor presentation of history, and I'm not the one saying "cite it" with citations right under my nose.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I dunno about intentional.

They had the science knowledge that smallpox was transferred by blankets in those days?

Germ and viral discovery wasn't around until the late 1890s.

Even when the Black Death slaughtered the human population many centuries ago they still practiced things like isolating people, keeping people and their households away from eachother, there were even masks (such as the beak masks) and lockdown orders. They may not have known what was actually causing the illness but means of mitigating the spread of illness have existed many centuries before them. There's even a town who decided no one leaves amd no one must leave because leaving would spread their own outbreak to others.

 

[Shaul]

I'm not the one playing games. I'm not the one who posted a source that's known for a poor presentation of history, and I'm not the one saying "cite it" with citations right under my nose.

LOL I knew you couldn't produce.

 

[Augustus]

The first smallpox vaccinations did not occur until the 1790s under Dr. Edward Jenner. During the 1760s there were no vaccinations for it. Furthermore the native Americans had access to a similar level of medical expertise via their French supporters.

People were using basic inoculation techniques from perhaps as early as the 17th c, not full vaccinations though.

People noticed things like those who had been exposed to cowpox seemed to have protection against smallpox, and rudimentary treatments proceeded from there.

 

[Shaul]

People were using basic inoculation techniques from perhaps as early as the 17th c, not full vaccinations though.

People noticed things like those who had been exposed to cowpox seemed to have protection against smallpox, and rudimentary treatments proceeded from there.

According to the CDC the basis for smallpox vaccination did not begin until the 1790s.
History of Smallpox | Smallpox | CDC
The British forces in 1763 did not have access to any smallpox vaccination.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

LOL I knew you couldn't produce.

It's already been produced. Apparently your claim depends on you ignoring those other posts.

 

[Augustus]

According to the CDC the basis for smallpox vaccination did not begin until the 1790s.
History of Smallpox | Smallpox | CDC
The British forces in 1763 did not have access to any smallpox vaccination.

Apparently you didn’t actually read what I posted as I explicitly said there was no full vaccination just more rudimentary inoculation techniques. Perhaps this will help (sorry the formatting from pasting the journal article turns into quotes but I can’t be bothered to fix it)

Working backwards in time from the first variolations in Britain and colonial Massachusetts in 1721, it is possible to trace the practice back for at least a century in parts of the Ottoman Empire and Europe. In 1714, a letter written by Emanuel Timonius at Constaninople was circulated around Europe and read to the Royal Society by John Woodward.

‘The writer of this ingenious discourse observes, in the first place, that the Circassians, Georgians, and other Asiatics, have introduced this practice of procuring the smallpox by a sort of inoculation, for about the space of forty years, among the Turks and others at Constantinople.’

‘That although at first the more prudent were very cautious in the use of this practice; yet the happy success it has found to have in thousands of subjects for these eight years past, has put it out of all suspicion and doubt; since the operation, having been performed on persons of all ages, sexes, and different temperaments…none have been found to die of the smallpox.’

…They that have this inoculation practised upon them are subject to very slight symptoms, some being scarce sensible they are ill or sick: and what is valued by the fair, it never leaves and scars or pits in the face.’1

When this was published in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society it triggered a reply from Cotton Mather, a minister in Boston, Massachusetts.

‘I am willing to confirm to you, in a favourable opinion, of Dr. Timonius' communication; and therefore, I do assure you, that many months before I met with any intimations of treating the smallpox with the method of inoculation, anywhere in Europe; I had from a servant of my own an account of its being practised in Africa. Enquiring of my Negro man, Onesimus, who is a pretty intelligent fellow, whether he had ever had the smallpox, he answered, both yes and no; and then told me that he had undergone an operation, which had given him something of the smallpox and would forever preserve him from it; adding that it was often used among the Guramantese and whoever had the courage to use it was forever free of the fear of contagion. He described the operation to me, and showed me in his arm the scar which it had left upon him; and his description of it made it the same that afterwards I found related unto you by your Timonius.’2

Onesimus was a Guaramante from what is now southern Libya, who had been given to Mather by his parishioners in 1707. Mather said that he had had this conversation with Onesimus many months before he read the Timonius report. Mather's comments were amplified by another minister, Benjamin Colman, who described his conversations with several negroes who had also been inoculated in Africa.3 Subsequently, in 1716, a well respected physician, Jacob Pylarinius, also writing from Turkey, reported that inoculation had been introduced into Constatinople by a Greek woman about 1660. It had been widely used by poor Christians until, during a severe smallpox epidemic in 1700, the practice spread throughout the Christian community more generally.
Working backwards in time from the first variolations in Britain and colonial Massachusetts in 1721, it is possible to trace the practice back for at least a century in parts of the Ottoman Empire and Europe. In 1714, a letter written by Emanuel Timonius at Constaninople was circulated around Europe and read to the Royal Society by John Woodward.

‘The writer of this ingenious discourse observes, in the first place, that the Circassians, Georgians, and other Asiatics, have introduced this practice of procuring the smallpox by a sort of inoculation, for about the space of forty years, among the Turks and others at Constantinople.’

‘That although at first the more prudent were very cautious in the use of this practice; yet the happy success it has found to have in thousands of subjects for these eight years past, has put it out of all suspicion and doubt; since the operation, having been performed on persons of all ages, sexes, and different temperaments…none have been found to die of the smallpox.’

…They that have this inoculation practised upon them are subject to very slight symptoms, some being scarce sensible they are ill or sick: and what is valued by the fair, it never leaves and scars or pits in the face.’1

When this was published in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society it triggered a reply from Cotton Mather, a minister in Boston, Massachusetts.

‘I am willing to confirm to you, in a favourable opinion, of Dr. Timonius' communication; and therefore, I do assure you, that many months before I met with any intimations of treating the smallpox with the method of inoculation, anywhere in Europe; I had from a servant of my own an account of its being practised in Africa. Enquiring of my Negro man, Onesimus, who is a pretty intelligent fellow, whether he had ever had the smallpox, he answered, both yes and no; and then told me that he had undergone an operation, which had given him something of the smallpox and would forever preserve him from it; adding that it was often used among the Guramantese and whoever had the courage to use it was forever free of the fear of contagion. He described the operation to me, and showed me in his arm the scar which it had left upon him; and his description of it made it the same that afterwards I found related unto you by your Timonius.’2

Onesimus was a Guaramante from what is now southern Libya, who had been given to Mather by his parishioners in 1707. Mather said that he had had this conversation with Onesimus many months before he read the Timonius report. Mather's comments were amplified by another minister, Benjamin Colman, who described his conversations with several negroes who had also been inoculated in Africa.3 Subsequently, in 1716, a well respected physician, Jacob Pylarinius, also writing from Turkey, reported that inoculation had been introduced into Constatinople by a Greek woman about 1660. It had been widely used by poor Christians until, during a severe smallpox epidemic in 1700, the practice spread throughout the Christian community more generally.

The origins of inoculation

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Shaul]

It's already been produced. Apparently your claim depends on you ignoring those other posts.

You have become a parrot. You repeat "been produced", "been produced", squawk! But you don't and can't simply post it. Whatever.

 

[syo]

America is the reason we don't have a ww3. We like peace. Thank you, Americans! No joke!