American Muslim women protest gender apartheid at mosque.

[David69]

Down with the evil manipulators of Religion and down with the woman opressors.

I think this thread is about woman being second class citizens, "if that"!
I dont think that muslem men find woman praying next to them distracting because of there beauty. Arnt the muslem women made to cover themselves up so that theres nothing to see, so how the helll is it because of there beauty? if it was, cant the men control themselves?
It is because the men feel uncomfortable because it isnt right that meer wifees disrepect there wishes for them to stay at home, doing woman things or whatever.
Its not right the way woman "all around the world" are treat by men. This is cave man mentallity.
I man, you wo-man. Its not necesserally a muslim thing or a Jewish thing, its a global thing.
If you treat woman like dirt, you are not a man. Woman should be put on a peddastil and worshipped!! And by many propper men around the world, they are! But by the majority they are just objects to do mans bidding and should not be seen nor heard etc.
I dont know if its true but I heard that Orthodox Jewish men put a sheet with a hole in it on there wifees before having sex!! *shakes head*! Insult to humankind! In my own whitey England the hard men, propper gadgys will often slep their ***** in public to show how hard they are infront of there peers and to show that she is in her place etc... Its a global thing by the cave man mentallity!

I tell you what, when I rule the world, there is going to be big changes made! oh yes! I give you my word. The way is forward, not backward. Down with the neandatal.
My heart bleeds for all those woman out there that are being miss treated by big hard hairy *** gadgees. Hang your heads in shame! And Hang your heads in shame all groups that hate each other, kill each other including the innocent bystanders because of there own selfish beleifs. An insult to God! When I rule the world there will be none of this! No weopons, no hate, no predudices, no starvasion, no seperation. Its the only way that it can work... by becoming one.
We will all see the glorious light and I give you my word, the time is nigh!
Know this, evil manipulators of my world, when the good people see the truth for themselves there will be no one to do your evil bidding!!! mark my words!
I am David69 Angel of the North

 

[.lava]

Not for the first time, I wish more Muslims were like our friend .lava.

But seriously, and setting aside the attacks and the defensiveness, I don't know of any other group who would have responded that way. So, again, in all seriousness, why do you think Muslims, alone in the world, react this way to a cartoon?

i think our media plays a role there. whenever a cartoon was published, our media come up with highligts like "Great insult" or "How dare they". i think that manipulates people even before they know it. they feel rage. they want revenge. even though rage and revenge are seriously unIslamic, people lose it when they become emotional. there are many ways to let people know about cartoons. how they say about it could invite people to riot or show some toleration.

but there is also another factor. i despite i tvery much. it is called fatwa. it is mafia-like attitude. years ago, i've known a guy. he was weird, unusual but nice. his body was covered with tattoos. tattoos are not welcomed in Islam. this guy was fan of Tasavvuf and his tattoos included names of God. so someday, in TV show camera captured him and his tattoos. (he used to work as bartender.) story goes as; some guy sees him on TV and in a few weeks he gets him killed on the street. it was not a fatwa though. the man who ordered murderer was already a criminal who get upset over his tattoos. nature of fatwa is similar. some guy does not like what he sees and invites others to kill someone else.

in our culture, we never experienced such a thing. we never knew anyone who insult or mock Prophets. but as you see, even though that guy i used to know was a lover of Tasavvuf got killed by someone else simply because he was considered as disrespectful to Islam and Allah. even if he was disrespectful, that should be his problem. and if Muslims really believe in heaven and hell, and hell here is being torment forever that we should not wish for anyone else; they should pray so that people stop insulting Prophets instead of wishing hell for them

long story short, IMO, the main reason is people are not used to it and they can not see consequences of their actions. they are damaging Islam ad we all pay for their mistakes, as you see. obviously this is not serving God

.

 

[Fatihah]

IF people actually take the time and read about Islam this debate would be long over

Response: Yet, unfortunately, many are here for the spirit of debating, not to actually learn of islam.

 

[aymen amir]

I had enough debate for the night sweet dreamz every one

:snoopy:

 

[.lava]

Not for the first time, I wish more Muslims were like our friend .lava.

btw, i don't think Aymen is OK with violent reactions or harming people either. i think he is misunderstood

.

 

[Autodidact]

why did you quote me and Aymen at the same time? is there any relation between what we say?

.

I'm just trying to have fewer posts. I've been told people find many short posts annoying.

 

[Autodidact]

IF people actually take the time and read about Islam this debate would be long over

What is it you want people to read? Please make sure to check that it's factual.

i think our media plays a role there. whenever a cartoon was published, our media come up with highligts like "Great insult" or "How dare they". i think that manipulates people even before they know it. they feel rage. they want revenge. even though rage and revenge are seriously unIslamic, people lose it when they become emotional. there are many ways to let people know about cartoons. how they say about it could invite people to riot or show some toleration.

but there is also another factor. i despite i tvery much. it is called fatwa. it is mafia-like attitude. years ago, i've known a guy. he was weird, unusual but nice. his body was covered with tattoos. tattoos are not welcomed in Islam. this guy was fan of Tasavvuf and his tattoos included names of God. so someday, in TV show camera captured him and his tattoos. (he used to work as bartender.) story goes as; some guy sees him on TV and in a few weeks he gets him killed on the street. it was not a fatwa though. the man who ordered murderer was already a criminal who get upset over his tattoos. nature of fatwa is similar. some guy does not like what he sees and invites others to kill someone else.

in our culture, we never experienced such a thing. we never knew anyone who insult or mock Prophets. but as you see, even though that guy i used to know was a lover of Tasavvuf got killed by someone else simply because he was considered as disrespectful to Islam and Allah. even if he was disrespectful, that should be his problem. and if Muslims really believe in heaven and hell, and hell here is being torment forever that we should not wish for anyone else; they should pray so that people stop insulting Prophets instead of wishing hell for them

long story short, IMO, the main reason is people are not used to it and they can not see consequences of their actions. they are damaging Islam ad we all pay for their mistakes, as you see. obviously this is not serving God

.

So true. What can be done about it?

 

[.lava]

first let me say that i obviously agree with you on what the appropriate response the the cartoons (or any islam directed blasphemy for that matter) should of been.

now let me ask, does islam encourage freedom of speech? what does freedom of speech mean in islam?

IMO insulting and mocking is not freedom speech. they are insulting and mocking. nature of insult and mocking would not change when they are called freedom of speech. what i understand from freedom speech is different than that. if people are imprisoned for having an opinion, then i would say there is no freedom of speech. i don't think it is my right to insult others and mock what's divine for them by abusing this freedom. i think definition of freedom of speech is twisted by Western people lately.

and you say the violent reaction some muslims had to the cartoon was partly the result of muslims not being used to that sort of blasphemy. at one point in time christians (and tho a very small minority still do) would have reacted in a similar manner, but over time they allowed freedom of speech, and enforced it. we eventually allowed that sort of thing, and protected people from reprisal. so if muslims are ever going to get "used" to harmless blasphemy directed towards them, are they not going to have to start allowing it in their countries? are they not going to have to protect people who want say these sort of things about islam?

yes, i believe Muslims are not used to it. i know, i wasn't. as i said, i don't consider that as freedom of speech. i don't think it is harmless. matter of fact i believe it has harm over society in long term. i sincerely would not want my child to see those cartoons as a kid. i rather he learns to respect what's divine for people instead of learning how to mock them. mockery of others would not set a good example for kids. people are not saying things. there are many ways to say what you think. mockery is a shallow and hostile way to do it. i see no chance our nations would be OK with publishing cartoons of Prophets. public would not let it happen and i support it. if it was voted, i would definetely vote "No to mockery of divine"

from my perspective, it appears that muslims are insecure in their faith. they seem to think that any dissent, any blasphemy will harm their religion and their faith. if you wont allow people to say or present things critical of islam, then what that says to me is that your afraid. afraid that your religion & faith will be strong enough to allow dissenting voices.

once again, mockery is a shallow way to express anything. because by it's nature, it provokes people to give negative reactions, well, it is mockery, you look down upon people as you mock them. this is not just criticizing. it is not a friendly approach. i am afraid if a society gets used to mockery of what's divine for them, they would lose divinity altogether. not the other way around. it is like inviting people to hate what they love. it makes no sense to me.

i understand your point and i understand that english is neither yours or aymen's first language. and what he said may have been misunderstood because of this. but he seems to write english well enough to get his thoughts across, and so i think it would of been easy for him to simply say "the way they reacted was irrational & inappropriate". and if thats what he truly believes, and i have no reason to believe that it isnt, he should have simply said it to begin with, it would of saved alot of drama. tho im aware he has said that by now.

it is not all that easy when you use 2nd language. but it gets better in time. i still can't forget once i said "nasty", though i meant to say "naughty". i know meaning of both words but it just happened and i did not realize the mistake for awhile

.

 

[Gabethewiking]

IMO insulting and mocking is not freedom speech. they are insulting and mocking. nature of insult and mocking would not change when they are called freedom of speech. what i understand from freedom speech is different than that. if people are imprisoned for having an opinion, then i would say there is no freedom of speech. i don't think it is my right to insult others and mock what's divine for them by abusing this freedom. i think definition of freedom of speech is twisted by Western people lately.

.lava, freedom of speech allow people to express opinions (different) from yours, so in this case we would have people pointing out that Islam , or people of Muslim faith, carry out atrocities such as murdering their own daughters because the family is "ashamed of them", or fly planes into houses killing thousands of people.

If I insulted you, I apologize, but as you can see I do not kill you or your family, that you believe silly things like Islam is your thing, and I have the right (so should everyone) to point out it is silly, that you do not like this does not give you the right to kill innocent people, does it?

Once again, if I insulted you or you feel insulted, I apologize and you need not to look out the window for any plane or running man with bombs on him because I have no right to take your life whatever you would call or say to me.

Ga briel

Added: it is not all that easy when you use 2nd language. but it gets better in time. i still can't forget once i said "nasty", though i meant to say "naughty". i know meaning of both words but it just happened and i did not realize the mistake for awhile

Do not worry about your english, if anyone mentions that you spell something wrong or insults you because of poor grammar/spelling means that they have nothing to contribute themselves, a honest individual would not comment on you as a person whatever this is your spelling or how you dress, it is irrelevant, we all make mistakes. Do not worry about it.

 

[Autodidact]

IMO insulting and mocking is not freedom speech. they are insulting and mocking. nature of insult and mocking would not change when they are called freedom of speech. what i understand from freedom speech is different than that. if people are imprisoned for having an opinion, then i would say there is no freedom of speech. i don't think it is my right to insult others and mock what's divine for them by abusing this freedom. i think definition of freedom of speech is twisted by Western people lately.

Yes, insulting and mocking are included in freedom of speech. Free speech means the freedom to say what you want, as long as you're not defaming anyone.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Yes, insulting and mocking are included in freedom of speech. Free speech means the freedom to say what you want, as long as you're not defaming anyone.

I think that according to the Qu'ran you are guilty of slander if you mock, insult or question the word of the Qu'ran, so it could become somewhat circular here but you need to ask lava about that.

 

[.lava]

OK buddie, since you love to talk to me...i'll give you what you want. it would be much more easier for me of course, if you tell me what that is actually..for now...i'll respond till i get tired of hostility

.lava, freedom of speech allow people to express opinions (different) from yours, so in this case we would have people pointing out that Islam , or people of Muslim faith, carry out atrocities such as murdering their own daughters because the family is "ashamed of them", or fly planes into houses killing thousands of people.

and where did i exactly claim freedom of speech is not telling what you think? SHOW ME

are you bascily telling there are no fathers who kill their daughters in your nation? or what?

i am sorry, but so far i see, 9/11 remains a mystery. yea i know, i've heard that they found the passport of the terrorist yet i wonder how come that passport survived from a fire that two huge buildings couldnot survive.

If I insulted you, I apologize, but as you can see I do not kill you or your family, that you believe silly things like Islam is your thing, and I have the right (so should everyone) to point out it is silly, that you do not like this does not give you the right to kill innocent people, does it?

i am sorry, i am not dumb. not dumb enough to accept an apology that come along with insult itself. but you can play your game. though you should not forget, i am not your mate in that game, you are playing with ghosts.

Once again, if I insulted you or you feel insulted, I apologize and you need not to look out the window for any plane or running man with bombs on him because I have no right to take your life whatever you would call or say to me.

Ga briel

no, i don't feel insulted. i don't take it personal yet. btw are you drunk?

.

 

[.lava]

Yes, insulting and mocking are included in freedom of speech. Free speech means the freedom to say what you want, as long as you're not defaming anyone.

i disagree. i don't need to mock you to let you know what i think. so mockery goes but what i think stays..no need mockery to freely speak what i think. freedom of speech is needed when one can not say what he thinks. so more than how he says it, it is "he is not being able to say it"

.

 

[JMorris]

IMO insulting and mocking is not freedom speech. they are insulting and mocking. nature of insult and mocking would not change when they are called freedom of speech. what i understand from freedom speech is different than that. if people are imprisoned for having an opinion, then i would say there is no freedom of speech. i don't think it is my right to insult others and mock what's divine for them by abusing this freedom. i think definition of freedom of speech is twisted by Western people lately.

freedom of speech is the freedom to say what is not popular. if not, then what is left? only the freedom to say what is popular? there is no freedom in that.

from everything ive seen you write you seem to believe in democracy. not american style democracy, which is something i can understand since even i dont believe in american style "democracy". but freedom of speech is integral to democracy.

if you dont have the freedom to criticize islam or muhammed, then whats to stop the govt from declaring that it is ordained by allah, and that all criticism of it is blasphemous? isnt that one of the problems in Iran? to speak out against the Islamic Republic is to speak blasphemy against islam & muhammed? wasnt the same true of the Taliban? wasnt the same true of medieval european kingdoms? of imperial japan? or imperial china?

and again, the muslim inability to deal with or tolerate criticism or satire of Islam or muhammed speaks to me of insecurity. but not only that, but also a feeling of superiority. in the west (despite my best wishes) religion has survived freedom of speech, including islam. so why is it that you and other muslims feel so threatened by this? what negative effects could possibly come from allowing blasphemy? will the world end? will muslims cease to be muslim? will Islam end? of course not, so what is there to be afraid of? other than some hurt feelings of course, but you know feelings heal.

and what of religions other than islam? do muslims have the right to mock buddha, vishnu, or jesus christ (not the Islamic prophet, but the christian messiah)? are muslims so special that they are the only people on earth that should be immune to criticism or satire? if muslims are free to say buddha is a false prophet for an unholy pagan religion, then why should buddhists not be given the same right? because islam is the only true religion of god? well im sure you know this, but that has yet to be proven.

and as for not wanting children to be exposed these sort of influences, who said you had to allow your kids to view these cartoons, movies, books, ect? allowing freedom of speech does not mean you have to take part in it.

it is like inviting people to hate what they love. it makes no sense to me.

well im living proof that i do not love any sort of "divine" anything. so to say that all people love it is arrogant. you think every Turk loves allah? should they be forced to? should they be forced to condescend to "muslim superiority" simply because the majority of Turks are muslim? why should every single person in Turkey (if not the world) be forced to pretend that islam is a special religion that deserves nothing but praise? why shouldnt Danes be allowed to draw a stupid cartoon characterizing muhammed? because muslims feel they are superior to every other person on earth?

it seems to me that muslims want to dictate to the entire world. whether you react violently or not, you dont seem to think the rest of us should be allowed to criticize or satire islam or muslims. and why is this? is it because your insecure in your religion? or is it that you feel superior to the rest of the world?

 

[.lava]

freedom of speech is the freedom to say what is not popular. if not, then what is left? only the freedom to say what is popular? there is no freedom in that.

from everything ive seen you write you seem to believe in democracy. not american style democracy, which is something i can understand since even i dont believe in american style "democracy". but freedom of speech is integral to democracy.

if you dont have the freedom to criticize islam or muhammed, then whats to stop the govt from declaring that it is ordained by allah, and that all criticism of it is blasphemous? isnt that one of the problems in Iran? to speak out against the Islamic Republic is to speak blasphemy against islam & muhammed? wasnt the same true of the Taliban? wasnt the same true of medieval european kingdoms? of imperial japan? or imperial china?

i am maybe misunderstood. i have no problem if people are telling whatever they think and they are, actually. i just don't believe people have right to insult one another as they express themselves.

and again, the muslim inability to deal with or tolerate criticism or satire of Islam or muhammed speaks to me of insecurity. but not only that, but also a feeling of superiority.

i can't say you are right or wrong. maybe for some people that's the deal. but i would not generalize over billion people. faith is something one has within. what you have within is reflected in reality. i don't expect it to work other way around. but of course there is difference between acting and reacting. if one has bottons, then someone or something would push it. if people are not aware of this, then they would just react like robots when their bottons were pushed.

in the west (despite my best wishes) religion has survived freedom of speech, including islam. so why is it that you and other muslims feel so threatened by this? what negative effects could possibly come from allowing blasphemy? will the world end? will muslims cease to be muslim? will Islam end? of course not, so what is there to be afraid of? other than some hurt feelings of course, but you know feelings heal.

i am sorry, i don't consider mockery as a virtue. i would support any virtue.

and what of religions other than islam? do muslims have the right to mock buddha, vishnu, or jesus christ (not the Islamic prophet, but the christian messiah)? are muslims so special that they are the only people on earth that should be immune to criticism or satire? if muslims are free to say buddha is a false prophet for an unholy pagan religion, then why should buddhists not be given the same right? because islam is the only true religion of god? well im sure you know this, but that has yet to be proven.

no, mockery is never welcomed. as i said for a few times in RF, even if someone is worshipping a piece stone, he should be respected. that stone is his relation with divinity. i might think that is wrong to worship a stone but i would not mock the person. besides, there are strange dynamics in this world. there is a saying; "Noone would leave this life before he becomes what he looks down upon". i believe that and i fear God for mocking someone else's understanding.

who says Buddha was not a Prophet? i know some Muslims here say he was. i don't know

and as for not wanting children to be exposed these sort of influences, who said you had to allow your kids to view these cartoons, movies, books, ect? allowing freedom of speech does not mean you have to take part in it.

well im living proof that i do not love any sort of "divine" anything. so to say that all people love it is arrogant. you think every Turk loves allah? should they be forced to? should they be forced to condescend to "muslim superiority" simply because the majority of Turks are muslim? why should every single person in Turkey (if not the world) be forced to pretend that islam is a special religion that deserves nothing but praise? why shouldnt Danes be allowed to draw a stupid cartoon characterizing muhammed? because muslims feel they are superior to every other person on earth?

it seems to me that muslims want to dictate to the entire world. whether you react violently or not, you dont seem to think the rest of us should be allowed to criticize or satire islam or muslims. and why is this? is it because your insecure in your religion? or is it that you feel superior to the rest of the world?

this is not about being or feeling superior. every person has his own divine. for you maybe it is not Prophets, maybe it is human rights. there is always something that people value. i think this is very humane. i have friends who hapened to be Turks but they are not religiou and they do not believe what i believe. they do things that i would not approve and i believe in things that they would never agree. but we get together and we show respect to each other. in case i preach them whenever we meet, they would probably get annoyed and in case if they mocked Prophet or my belief then i would not meet them again. so we show respect. what's wrong with that? why do you think insulting and disturbing others is better than this? you gotto be the one who feels superior to mock others. i am not saying it to you personally, just matter of speech

.

 

[JMorris]

well, i dunno what to further add to this discussion. i believe in freedom of speech, the good & the bad, and you seem to believe in limited speech. is that right? or am i misunderstanding?

anyway, i wish i could add more, but im tired. not of this conversation, but from sleep deprivation. toodles.

 

[.lava]

well, i dunno what to further add to this discussion. i believe in freedom of speech, the good & the bad, and you seem to believe in limited speech. is that right? or am i misunderstanding?

anyway, i wish i could add more, but im tired. not of this conversation, but from sleep deprivation. toodles.

i do support freedom of speech. i believe people have right to speak their minds and noone should opppress other and force him to live in fear for what he thinks or believes. am i being clear? the only difference between us is that i don't find it humane and positive when people insult each other. i think it is blinding. we don't need to insult others to express what we think. people are able to chose between being polite, kind and unkind, hostile.

it is OK. i am off to watch Star Wars

.

 

[JMorris]

i do support freedom of speech. i believe people have right to speak their minds and noone should opppress other and force him to live in fear for what he thinks or believes. am i being clear? the only difference between us is that i don't find it humane and positive when people insult each other. i think it is blinding. we don't need to insult others to express what we think. people are able to chose between being polite, kind and unkind, hostile.

it is OK. i am off to watch Star Wars

.

not the new ones i hope

 

[Autodidact]

i disagree. i don't need to mock you to let you know what i think. so mockery goes but what i think stays..no need mockery to freely speak what i think. freedom of speech is needed when one can not say what he thinks. so more than how he says it, it is "he is not being able to say it"

.

freedom of speech extends not only to speech I approve of, but speech I despise. I don't have to like it to respect your right to say it. Freedom of speech means it is not up to you, whether you like it or not. If the speech is not inciting violence, and is not defaming anyone, the individual is free to make it, even if it offends me--and it often does. Nevertheless I defend their right to make it. That's free speech. The fact that you oppose this does not speak well for Islamic values.

 

[Autodidact]

.lava: Freedom of speech means the freedom of others to say things that I DON'T think are virtuous, even things I believe are evil. It is very, very distressing that you cannot grasp this concept so fundamental to freedom and democracy. It speaks very poorly of Islamic values.