American Muslim women protest gender apartheid at mosque.

[.lava]

.lava: Freedom of speech means the freedom of others to say things that I DON'T think are virtuous, even things I believe are evil. It is very, very distressing that you cannot grasp this concept so fundamental to freedom and democracy. It speaks very poorly of Islamic values.

you keep talking about saying things. i have no problem about it. i don't have problem with people who say they don't accept or respect Prophets. yet when it is done by mockery (by that i mean cartoon of Prophet because people actually draw a man who represent Prophet which is why Muslims react), then there is more than just a thought. i am sorry but i don't understand why i should be OK with breaking hearts of people. i would not wish to do that. i believe i can still believe whatever i believe and express it without breaking hearts. every single human being as able to chose between. when you have chance saying what you think without breaking hearts and you chose not to, then i really don't get it. i sincerely don't understand why people chose it. what's wrong with showing respect to each other? i hope one day you see that it was illustration of Mohammad SAW that's what we are not OK with, not what people believe or think about him. this would not change if they draw him as the most beautiful man you'd ever seen. problem would remain. check it out, there is a movie about life of Mohammad SAW. that movie's never had any negative reactions from Muslims because there are no scenes that represent Prophet in person. they showed respect to our sensibility on this issue. i don't think they did wrong. i respect them back naturally. that is very strange to me that you are defending something that i may call inhumane and you do it in the name of free speech. that is really weird. but it is your choice and you'd be respected. as a result we would agree to disagree. i believe there is no need to discuss over this. we are both certain

.

 

[Peace]

you keep talking about saying things. i have no problem about it. i don't have problem with people who say they don't accept or respect Prophets. yet when it is done by mockery (by that i mean cartoon of Prophet because people actually draw a man who represent Prophet which is why Muslims react), then there is more than just a thought. i am sorry but i don't understand why i should be OK with breaking hearts of people. i would not wish to do that. i believe i can still believe whatever i believe and express it without breaking hearts. every single human being as able to chose between. when you have chance saying what you think without breaking hearts and you chose not to, then i really don't get it. i sincerely don't understand why people chose it. what's wrong with showing respect to each other? i hope one day you see that it was illustration of Mohammad SAW that's what we are not OK with, not what people believe or think about him. this would not change if they draw him as the most beautiful man you'd ever seen. problem would remain. check it out, there is a movie about life of Mohammad SAW. that movie's never had any negative reactions from Muslims because there are no scenes that represent Prophet in person. they showed respect to our sensibility on this issue. i don't think they did wrong. i respect them back naturally. that is very strange to me that you are defending something that i may call inhumane and you do it in the name of free speech. that is really weird. but it is your choice and you'd be respected. as a result we would agree to disagree. i believe there is no need to discuss over this. we are both certain

.

Good post dear .lava and I agree with you.

 

[GURSIKH]

view of Sikh Gurdwara , can be a applicable to Mosque , just my suggestion

 

[Gabethewiking]

no, mockery is never welcomed. as i said for a few times in RF, even if someone is worshipping a piece stone, he should be respected. that stone is his relation with divinity. i might think that is wrong to worship a stone but i would not mock the person. besides, there are strange dynamics in this world. there is a saying; "Noone would leave this life before he becomes what he looks down upon". i believe that and i fear God for mocking someone else's understanding.

What if the person worshiping the stone also kills people because the stone tells him too, would you have a problem voicing an opinion over this instead of showing him respect?

Or what the Stone tells him to indoctrinate his children into also believing in the stone and do as the stone says, which say that you should deny facts like Evolution and Gravity? Would you respect him equally?

 

[Autodidact]

you keep talking about saying things. i have no problem about it. i don't have problem with people who say they don't accept or respect Prophets. yet when it is done by mockery (by that i mean cartoon of Prophet because people actually draw a man who represent Prophet which is why Muslims react), then there is more than just a thought. i am sorry but i don't understand why i should be OK with breaking hearts of people. i would not wish to do that. i believe i can still believe whatever i believe and express it without breaking hearts. every single human being as able to chose between. when you have chance saying what you think without breaking hearts and you chose not to, then i really don't get it. i sincerely don't understand why people chose it. what's wrong with showing respect to each other? i hope one day you see that it was illustration of Mohammad SAW that's what we are not OK with, not what people believe or think about him. this would not change if they draw him as the most beautiful man you'd ever seen. problem would remain. check it out, there is a movie about life of Mohammad SAW. that movie's never had any negative reactions from Muslims because there are no scenes that represent Prophet in person. they showed respect to our sensibility on this issue. i don't think they did wrong. i respect them back naturally. that is very strange to me that you are defending something that i may call inhumane and you do it in the name of free speech. that is really weird. but it is your choice and you'd be respected. as a result we would agree to disagree. i believe there is no need to discuss over this. we are both certain

.

The issue is not whether it's a good thing to do, whether you like it, whether you approve of it, whether you would want to do it. The only issue is whether other people should have the right to do it without triggering violence. I'm not saying I approve of the cartoons, but I strongly defend their right to make them. If someone made a cartoon that mocked me, replete with big nose, hairy legs and offensive Mormon-hating word bubbles over my head, I wouldn't appreciate it, but I would defend their right to do it. That's the issue.

 

[Autodidact]

Good post dear .lava and I agree with you.

So you also oppose free speech?

And you wonder why Westerners oppose Islamic expansion?

 

[.lava]

So you also oppose free speech?

And you wonder why Westerners oppose Islamic expansion?

i said it for a few times and i say it again. i support free speech. don't put words in my mouth. if you don't get what i am saying at least ask or stop pretending you get it

PLEASE!

.

 

[Autodidact]

i said it for a few times and i say it again. i support free speech. don't put words in my mouth. if you don't get what i am saying at least ask or stop pretending you get it

PLEASE!

.

What confuses me is that you keep talking about whether particular forms of speech are good or bad, which has nothing to do with it. Let's agree that they're horrible. O.K. They should still be permitted. That's free speech. So the question is, do you agree that we should allow people to say horrible things, without causing a violent (or legal) reaction?

 

[.lava]

What confuses me is that you keep talking about whether particular forms of speech are good or bad, which has nothing to do with it. Let's agree that they're horrible. O.K. They should still be permitted. That's free speech. So the question is, do you agree that we should allow people to say horrible things, without causing a violent (or legal) reaction?

i am afraid i failed explaining myself here. i have no problem with speeches. problem begins when one illustrates Prophet himself.

let me give you an example. if i joined a meeting with people from different nations and beliefs, i would sit down and listen to people. i would not mind if they oppose Islam. but in case they hang illustration of Prophet on the wall, i would leave that place.

maybe it is best for you and people like you to say: "i don't care for what you think, we are not going to compromise anything for you." to me, that's how you are. while you invite us to change all the time, you compromise NOTHING.

and again, what was the subject here? what's OP about? was it something like "take your negativity, expectations and arrogance and go to Muslims from every angle you can think of"?

funny

.

 

[Autodidact]

i am afraid i failed explaining myself here. i have no problem with speeches. problem begins when one illustrates Prophet himself.

let me give you an example. if i joined a meeting with people from different nations and beliefs, i would sit down and listen to people. i would not mind if they oppose Islam. but in case they hang illustration of Prophet on the wall, i would leave that place.

maybe it is best for you and people like you to say: "i don't care for what you think, we are not going to compromise anything for you." to me, that's how you are. while you invite us to change all the time, you compromise NOTHING.

and again, what was the subject here? what's OP about? was it something like "take your negativity, expectations and arrogance and go to Muslims from every angle you can think of"?

funny

.

Hey, no problem with leaving the place--why would you want to stay around? That's not the problem. The problem is that thousands of people rioted. Hundreds of people died. The rioters burned down embassies. They made death threats against the cartoonist and offered rewards for killing him.

This is ridiculous, criminal, violent, irrational behavior. By Muslims, for Islam.

What is my point? My point is that Islam seems to lead to very bad behavior by Muslims.

Furthermore, Islam opposes free speech. It responds to a really tiny, innocuous series of dumb cartoons in an obscure Danish newspaper by escalating into global violence. Therefore, the rest of us, the ones who value free speech, have no option but to do everything we can to oppose the spread of Islam. What choice does Islam give us, if we value freedom?

Furthermore, why are European countries getting concerned about Muslim immigration? Because if they let Muslims in, they get their trains bombed, and their right to free speech restricted. They give up rights that we spent centuries fighting for, some of the most important advances in human liberty--gone, poof. Because Muslims moved to their countries.

These are not minor matters. These are world events. They matter. They need to be discussed and understood.

And no, free speech should never be compromised. It is an absolute. Even when it's offensive.

And no, it makes no difference whether it's words or pictures, it's still free speech.

O.K. compromise. Seeing the Muslim point of view. Please defend the actions of millions of hysterical Muslims who rioted, burned buildings and beat up innocent people because they objected to some cartoons. I'm all ears.

 

[DallasApple]

The point is that you have to keep the men and women seperate because the man has no control over what his penis might do.

If somebody cant understand that I dont know what else to say.

It has nothing to do with "freedom of speech"..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

O.K. compromise. Seeing the Muslim point of view. Please defend the actions of millions of hysterical Muslims who rioted, burned buildings and beat up innocent people because they objected to some cartoons. I'm all ears.

Thats not freedom of speech.We arent "free" do vandelize and beat people up.No matter how angry we are.

If I catch my husband in bed with another woman and I have the "right to be angry" that doesnt mean I "get away with murder" if I kill both of them in my anger.That woudnt be "freedom of speech".

Love

Dallas

 

[.lava]

Hey, no problem with leaving the place--why would you want to stay around? That's not the problem. The problem is that thousands of people rioted. Hundreds of people died. The rioters burned down embassies. They made death threats against the cartoonist and offered rewards for killing him.

This is ridiculous, criminal, violent, irrational behavior. By Muslims, for Islam.

What is my point? My point is that Islam seems to lead to very bad behavior by Muslims.

Furthermore, Islam opposes free speech. It responds to a really tiny, innocuous series of dumb cartoons in an obscure Danish newspaper by escalating into global violence. Therefore, the rest of us, the ones who value free speech, have no option but to do everything we can to oppose the spread of Islam. What choice does Islam give us, if we value freedom?

Furthermore, why are European countries getting concerned about Muslim immigration? Because if they let Muslims in, they get their trains bombed, and their right to free speech restricted. They give up rights that we spent centuries fighting for, some of the most important advances in human liberty--gone, poof. Because Muslims moved to their countries.

These are not minor matters. These are world events. They matter. They need to be discussed and understood.

And no, free speech should never be compromised. It is an absolute. Even when it's offensive.

And no, it makes no difference whether it's words or pictures, it's still free speech.

O.K. compromise. Seeing the Muslim point of view. Please defend the actions of millions of hysterical Muslims who rioted, burned buildings and beat up innocent people because they objected to some cartoons. I'm all ears.

i leave you alone with your reality. i hope you manage to find peace

.

 

[Autodidact]

i leave you alone with your reality. i hope you manage to find peace

.

It's not my reality, .lava, it's reality reality. These riots really did happen. I didn't make it up. They really were over some cartoons. And that really is a very bad thing.

I have peace, thanks.

So apparently you have no solution other than that non-Muslim countries should bar Muslim immigration and oppose Islamic expansion.

 

[.lava]

It's not my reality, .lava, it's reality reality. These riots really did happen. I didn't make it up. They really were over some cartoons. And that really is a very bad thing.

I have peace, thanks.

So apparently you have no solution other than that non-Muslim countries should bar Muslim immigration and oppose Islamic expansion.

offer me a link and let me see where "hundreds of people died over cartoon"

you don't get me. look, our cultures are very different and we live in the same world. is that a fact enough for you? one way or another two sides of this planet needs to find a common ground to bring peace to everyone. do you agree with me till now?

.

 

[David69]

so whats all this got to do with lava? Yous are like a dog with a bone. lava didnt go out and riot and kill nor agrees with this behaviour and seems to be in favour of freedom of speech? you cant blame all muslims! like us we are individuals and you get head cases all over the world and a lot of them are atheists too, there in all groups! everywhere. AnyBODY that commits murder for there beleifs are the true evil! leave it eh?

 

[Gabethewiking]

offer me a link and let me see where "hundreds of people died over cartoon"

you don't get me. look, our cultures are very different and we live in the same world. is that a fact enough for you? one way or another two sides of this planet needs to find a common ground to bring peace to everyone. do you agree with me till now?

.

Please listen to Autodidact instead of ignoring her.

Your above comment is what is known as, well, weird. You say that there is "two sides", yes, you got one culture celebrating freedom of speech and the rights for individuals, and then you got muslim wanting to oppress these rights.. I am a bit confused how you want to find a "common ground" on this, you want oppress Freedom, You are the one with the problem/negative, not the others, They ALLOW you to do whatever you want as long as you do not HARM others.

 

[Gabethewiking]

It's not my reality, .lava, it's reality reality. These riots really did happen. I didn't make it up. They really were over some cartoons. And that really is a very bad thing.

I have peace, thanks.

So apparently you have no solution other than that non-Muslim countries should bar Muslim immigration and oppose Islamic expansion.

Apparently she is not aware of these rather famous events so I doubt she knows about other events with muslim killing/harming which are not as well known. Perhaps they do not allow to show them on the news where she is from?

 

[aymen amir]

Apparently she is not aware of these rather famous events so I doubt she knows about other events with muslim killing/harming which are not as well known. Perhaps they do not allow to show them on the news where she is from?

please provide a link with the statistics of the ppl killed from the cartoon??

 

[Autodidact]

offer me a link and let me see where "hundreds of people died over cartoon"

After a Danish newspaper and other European publications displayed 12 cartoons caricaturing the Prophet Muhammad in 2005 and early 2006, violent protests erupted around the world. Muslims throughout the Middle East and Africa rioted. They burned embassies and churches and fought with police; at least 200 died and many more were injured.

New York Times

you don't get me. look, our cultures are very different and we live in the same world. is that a fact enough for you? one way or another two sides of this planet needs to find a common ground to bring peace to everyone. do you agree with me till now?

Yes, I strongly agree with that. Also, there is fault on the side of non-Muslims as well. The U.S. has plenty to answer for. None of that changes the fact that Islam is responsible for many negative trends in today's world.