An Atheist Dad Left His Kids with a Relative… Who Used the Opportunity to Proselytize the Kids

[skl]

I personally think they are both childish. Yes, the aunt was in the wrong but the dad needs an attitude adjustment, as well. They both sound like closed-minded, bitter people. Family, indeed.

The facts are that atheists do not sit their kids down on a regular basis to indoctrinate them. Granted, you get the exceptional one or two nut cases, however this father may now be forced into returning these kids to the basic default state of mind using the atheist point of view and they should not have to go through this sort of rubbish at such young ages. Indoctrination is a seriously damaged state of mind and can have permanent effects.

 

[Grumpuss]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so you won't mind somone indoctrinating your children in atheism, then, right?

There's nothing to "indoctrinate" with. Atheism isn't a religion. At best, someone could seize my children and attack their Christianity. As Christians, we all basically expect this anyway. Is this what you meant to say?

 

[Grumpuss]

Where is the morality in teaching children your own personal ideology, would you like your child to be indoctrinated into Islam or communism? Many thousands died fighting for political freedoms in world wars and religions have killed many thousands in the name of their gods, therefore why should children be indoctrinated into to the same crap? I say let them have real freedom to make up their own minds.

A rather bigoted view you hold of religion. I don't train my children to either hate or kill.

Perhaps your views would best be served in another forum?

 

[Skwim]

First, I'd go along with "AlissaA , who said:

I would use the incident as a learning experience for my children.
Girls, this is what religion can do to a person. Your aunt knew it was wrong to tell you to lie to your parents. She was wrong to try to scare you but she did it anyway because her judgement was clouded by her beliefs. Religion sometimes causes people to do bad things they ordinarily would never have considered."
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Secondly, I'd never speak to the woman again. Simple as that.

 

[Grumpuss]

How is trying to scare children and telling them to lie something God would be happy with or justify?

Already you start in with the strawmen. Who said anything about "scaring" or "lying"?

You don't need religion or knowledge of any gods to be moral. It is just not a prerequisite or requirement for morality.

I respectfully disagree. Everything you believe to be the basis for your own morality is drawn from Judeo-Christian doctrine, whether you care to admit it or not. The only discriminating factor is whether you choose to recognize this and give tacit acknowledgment of this truth.

Who was trying to do the brainwashing? The one going about his ways and bringing his children up in accordance with his views, or the one who set up a secret meeting, resorted to scare tactics, and then told the children to lie about the whole thing?

Children are intelligent and able to make up their own minds. Their minds are not the property of their parents. To cloister them away from important family tradition and God's will is the equivalent of burning books.

Do you censor Huckleberry Finn, or present the whole thing to a child (perhaps with some contextual explanation), and let him/her make up his/her own mind?

 

[Jumi]

They were supposed to be handing around the microphone for telling fond memories of Grandma. Instead they were going on-and-on with testimonies of their own coming to Jesus, - and constantly telling the family that all she wanted was for them to come to Jesus. I was totally disgusted. It was disgraceful at a funeral!

The last time I went to church was at a funeral where a priest tried to use the occasion to instill belief through fear of death.

 

[Sunstone]

[QUOTE="Grumpuss, post: 4705927, member: 59579"]Everything you believe to be the basis for your own morality is drawn from Judeo-Christian doctrine, whether you care to admit it or not. [/quote]

An interesting statement: I wonder how you could possibly prove it true?

Children are intelligent and able to make up their own minds. Their minds are not the property of their parents. To cloister them away from important family tradition and God's will is the equivalent of burning books.

I am fascinated by your straw man argument. At issue here is not whether children are being prevented from learning about Christians and Christianity, but rather whether they should be indoctrinated in certain views and beliefs against the wishes of their parents. Indoctrination is quite the opposite of allowing children to "make up their own minds". It is teaching children to accept a set of beliefs without criticism or reflection -- that is, without actually making up their own minds.

By the way, would you have any objections to someone indoctrinating your children in, say, Hinduism?

 

[Sunstone]

There's nothing to "indoctrinate" with. Atheism isn't a religion.

You seem to hold a narrow view of what "indoctrination" means. In this thread, I have defined "indoctrination" as "teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs without criticism or reflection." Atheism is a belief, and therefore by that definition, atheism can be indoctrinated into someone.

 

[Grumpuss]

You seem to hold a narrow view of what "indoctrination" means. In this thread, I have defined "indoctrination" as "teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs without criticism or reflection." Atheism is a belief, and therefore by that definition, atheism can be indoctrinated into someone.

I think you misunderstand what the definition of "atheism" is then. Look it up.

The absence of something is nothing, not a new something (unless physics have undergone an exciting new change.)

 

[Sunstone]

I think you misunderstand what the definition of "atheism" is then. Look it up.

The absence of something is nothing, not a new something (unless physics have undergone an exciting new change.)

Are you aware there's more than one common definition of the words "atheist" and "atheism"? For instance, there is Richard Dawkins' "atheism", which he describes as a belief that the existence of deity is an exceedingly remote possibility. Then, too, there are others who describe their atheism as a positive belief that there is no chance at all of any gods existing.

But, at any rate, the issue doesn't need to be formulated as one of indoctrination into atheism. It can be formulated this way, too: Do you believe you yourself have a right to prevent your children from being indoctrinated into any particular set of beliefs. Say, for instance, Hinduism. Or say, Satanism.

 

[skl]

A rather bigoted view you hold of religion. I don't train my children to either hate or kill.

Perhaps your views would best be served in another forum?

I am bigoted? how? Indoctrination of children is an abuse, not the right of an ideological driven religious person to possibly damage a child's life. You do not appear to see how serious this is and it is easy for you to get upset and call people bigots when you are on the back foot.

Atheism is not a religion as you say, however as they do not understand anything of this subject it is the default state of mind and it is for a child to decide when and what it wants to know about religion. Once the child understands what is going on and old enough to make a rational decision without undue pressure from real religious bigots they will be able to decide to stay as an atheist or seek out their religion of choice and should be respected for this.

 

[skl]

In truth, no one was hurt and now those girls have at least some grounded basis of morality.

This is one of the most untrue statements a person can possibly make. Humans had morals well before your religion came along, do some research, but of course you have to have an open mind to do that.

 

[Grumpuss]

Are you aware there's more than one common definition of the words "atheist" and "atheism"? For instance, there is Richard Dawkins' "atheism", which he describes as a belief that the existence of deity is an exceedingly remote possibility. Then, too, there are others who describe their atheism as a positive belief that there is no chance at all of any gods existing.

But, at any rate, the issue doesn't need to be formulated as one of indoctrination into atheism. It can be formulated this way, too: Do you believe you yourself have a right to prevent your children from being indoctrinated into any particular set of beliefs. Say, for instance, Hinduism. Or say, Satanism.

There are variations on the definition, yes. However, in none of them is atheism considered a bona fide religion.

My children are protected by Christ, and simply wouldn't absorb whatever is offered by Hinduism or Satanism.

 

[Grumpuss]

I am bigoted? how? Indoctrination of children is an abuse, not the right of an ideological driven religious person to possibly damage a child's life. You do not appear to see how serious this is and it is easy for you to get upset and call people bigots when you are on the back foot.

Atheism is not a religion as you say, however as they do not understand anything of this subject it is the default state of mind and it is for a child to decide when and what it wants to know about religion. Once the child understands what is going on and old enough to make a rational decision without undue pressure from real religious bigots they will be able to decide to stay as an atheist or seek out their religion of choice and should be respected for this.

Sounds great. What country do you live in, btw? In mine, we have a written constitution that establishes religious rights completely contrary to what you are alleging.

That's not to say everyone has to love, or even respect the laws of my country. Al Qaeda and ISIS, for example.

 

[Sunstone]

However, in none of them is atheism considered a bona fide religion.

True, but irrelevant.

My children are protected by Christ, and simply wouldn't absorb whatever is offered by Hinduism or Satanism.

Why are you ducking the question? At issue is not how your children would respond to indoctrination, but whether you yourself feel someone else has a right to indoctrinate, or attempt to indoctrinate, your children in an ideology that you disapprove of and/or would not indoctrinate them in yourself.

 

[skl]

Sounds great. What country do you live in, btw? In mine, we have a written constitution that establishes religious rights completely contrary to what you are alleging.

That's not to say everyone has to love, or even respect the laws of my country. Al Qaeda and ISIS, for example.

Are you saying your constitution condones indoctrination of children? In the old days the negative effects of indoctrination were not recognised as they are today but we are expected to have moved on with protecting our children with using some common sense even if the old laws have not been changed.

I am in Australia and from what I understand Al Qaeda and ISIS are right into indoctrination of children even more than Christianity.

I would also be interested in your answer to Sunstone's question.... but of course we will not hold our breath.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I respectfully disagree. Everything you believe to be the basis for your own morality is drawn from Judeo-Christian doctrine, whether you care to admit it or not. The only discriminating factor is whether you choose to recognize this and give tacit acknowledgment of this truth.

Please give example of a 'Judeo-Christian morality' I have.

I'd also ask for some sort of meaningful definition of 'Judeo-Christian' as it pertains to a single doctrine, but let's start with looking at the world from your viewpoint, I guess.

 

[Agondonter]

What should the dad do? "His sister-in-law wanted to spend some quality time with his two daughters [ages 6 & 8] by taking them out for ice cream — why would he say no to that? So the girls went with their aunt. When they arrived, the aunt’s pastor was waiting for them…" [Source (minor use of foul language)]

What would you do, if you were the father?

I dunno. I'm not a sick-o.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Already you start in with the strawmen. Who said anything about "scaring" or "lying"?

The scaring part comes from telling the girls their dad is going to burn in hell. The lying part comes from keeping the whole thing a secret.

Everything you believe to be the basis for your own morality is drawn from Judeo-Christian doctrine, whether you care to admit it or not.

You can disagree all you want, but my since of morality is not drawn from Judaeo-Christian doctrine. We can draw a list, and while I agree with some parts, for the whole my morality does not match such an ideology. Such as, for me, there is nothing wrong with homosexuals or sex outside of marriage. I do take the lord's name in vein, and I do not believe parents are inherently worthy of honor and respect. I don't believe in turning the other cheek, nor am I humble and meek. I don't lie, steal, or kill, but you have some serious problems if you need religion to tell you not to do those things.

Children are intelligent and able to make up their own minds. Their minds are not the property of their parents. To cloister them away from important family tradition and God's will is the equivalent of burning books.

The father didn't treat them like property, but the aunt certainly did. And how is it "equivalent to burning books" to not teach your children about god? If I ever have kids, you can rest assured I'm not going to make any efforts towards raising them to be religious, but they will be exposed to an abundance of knowledge and books.

Do you censor Huckleberry Finn, or present the whole thing to a child (perhaps with some contextual explanation), and let him/her make up his/her own mind?

Huckleberry Finn? That is a straw man. Huckleberry Finn is a work of fiction, a literary classic. Religion is the belief in a given set of superstitions, rituals, dogma, and mythos.

My children are protected by Christ, and simply wouldn't absorb whatever is offered by Hinduism or Satanism.

My parents probably said the same thing.

 

[Ingledsva]

This is one of the most untrue statements a person can possibly make. Humans had morals well before your religion came along, do some research, but of course you have to have an open mind to do that.

Yep, plus what kind of morality is it when they are told to hide it from the father, and to lie?

The aunt and the preacher are lacking in "morality."

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