An Idle Tale

[Ben Masada]

Today I was visited by a Christian who calls himself a "Messianic Jew." After an hour of study about the resurrection, he got impatient with my lack of faith, and before he left he challenged me to produce the body if I couldn't believe in Jesus' resurrection. That's what inspired me to share with you this topic for discussion.

Now, if we put ourselves together, and then put together whatever we can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus, we will see that he did not resurrect. I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes sir, and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus' own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective "idle." Idle tale, they said. (Luke 24:11)

The women had reported the words of the "angel" that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing. They had no choice but to discard their report as an idle tale. Now, think: If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words, could not believe the report, how can we be expected to, after almost two thousand years of listening to a tale that just won't get less idle?

When did the disciples ever change their minds about that idle tale? I wonder because about 30 years later, when Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had resurrected, he almost got killed. Why? Was not the Sect of the Nazarenes
headquartered in Jerusalem? Yes, but that Jesus had resurrected was not in their agenda. The whole thing had been made up by Paul. Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy. (II Tim. 2:8) Obviously, Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause, which turned out to be Christianity.

The resurrection of Jesus can be accepted only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection. And the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there. And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever, because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning. The disciple who removed Jesus' body from the tomb, most probably Joseph of Arimathea, had the whole night of Friday, and all for himself to act without any disturbance. And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that, by not doing it, even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it instead, as she herself declared she would. (John 20:15) So, I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give
Paul the credit that's due him. (II Tim. 2:8)

Ben

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Here is the rest of the story.


John 20 (NIV)
The Empty Tomb

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" 3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene

10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. 13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Jesus Appears to Thomas

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[sojourner]

Today I was visited by a Christian who calls himself a "Messianic Jew." After an hour of study about the resurrection, he got impatient with my lack of faith, and before he left he challenged me to produce the body if I couldn't believe in Jesus' resurrection. That's what inspired me to share with you this topic for discussion.

Now, if we put ourselves together, and then put together whatever we can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus, we will see that he did not resurrect. I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes sir, and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus' own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective "idle." Idle tale, they said. (Luke 24:11)

The women had reported the words of the "angel" that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing. They had no choice but to discard their report as an idle tale. Now, think: If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words, could not believe the report, how can we be expected to, after almost two thousand years of listening to a tale that just won't get less idle?

When did the disciples ever change their minds about that idle tale? I wonder because about 30 years later, when Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had resurrected, he almost got killed. Why? Was not the Sect of the Nazarenes
headquartered in Jerusalem? Yes, but that Jesus had resurrected was not in their agenda. The whole thing had been made up by Paul. Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy. (II Tim. 2:8) Obviously, Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause, which turned out to be Christianity.

The resurrection of Jesus can be accepted only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection. And the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there. And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever, because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning. The disciple who removed Jesus' body from the tomb, most probably Joseph of Arimathea, had the whole night of Friday, and all for himself to act without any disturbance. And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that, by not doing it, even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it instead, as she herself declared she would. (John 20:15) So, I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give
Paul the credit that's due him. (II Tim. 2:8)

Ben

You're off base. The story "seemed nonsense" to the disciples, until Jesus appeared to them. An empty tomb also does not disprove a resurrection. Furthermore, please remember that Joseph A. was a good Jew (I think he was a Pharisee), and could not have stolen the body away, as that would have constituted breaking sabbath law.

Your conjecture here is no more plausible than the resurrection -- except that those of us in the resurrection camp have the Biblical record. You have not even that.

 

[Ben Masada]

Here is the rest of the story.


John 20 (NIV)
The Empty Tomb

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" 3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene

10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. 13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Jesus Appears to Thomas

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AND THE POINT IS...

Now, come back to us with your findings.

Ben

 

[Charity]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AND THE POINT IS...

Now, come back to us with your findings.

Ben

And the point is, you wouldn't accept any findings.

 

[Ben Masada]

You're off base. The story "seemed nonsense" to the disciples, until Jesus appeared to them. An empty tomb also does not disprove a resurrection. Furthermore, please remember that Joseph A. was a good Jew (I think he was a Pharisee), and could not have stolen the body away, as that would have constituted breaking sabbath law.

Your conjecture here is no more plausible than the resurrection -- except that those of us in the resurrection camp have the Biblical record. You have not even that.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have as a gift from God the intellectual vision to see between the lines.
I never stay on the surfice of what is said. I go deeper where the pearls are found.
On the surfice swim those who are unprotected by the Divine oxygen.
I can breathe under the stormy waves of the trivialities of life.

Ben:clap

 

[sojourner]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have as a gift from God the intellectual vision to see between the lines.
I never stay on the surfice of what is said. I go deeper where the pearls are found.
On the surfice swim those who are unprotected by the Divine oxygen.
I can breathe under the stormy waves of the trivialities of life.

Ben:clap

I'll bet you're also more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Your exegetical spidey sense and x-ray vision are no more amazing than the American Maid's shoe. Maybe God, who has endowed you with this awesome power would also be so kind as to grant you the intellectual vision to spell "surface" correctly.

 

[Ben Masada]

And the point is, you wouldn't accept any findings.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How do you know till you try me? I am also very open-minded to research anything
that eventually I could absorb into my understanding.

Ben

 

[Jeremy Mason]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How do you know till you try me? I am also very open-minded to research anything
that eventually I could absorb into my understanding.

Ben

What did you absorb from the Scripture I referenced?

 

[Ben Masada]

What did you absorb from the Scripture I referenced?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

That the emptiness of a tomb is no proof of resurrection.
That the emptiness of that tomb in the eyes of Mary Magdalene reminded her only
that someone had removed Jesus' body from there and that she didn't know where it had been transferred to. (John 20:15) Why didn't she think of the resurrection? Because Jesus had never told her of such a thing. His resurrection would have to wait for another 30 years to be proclaimed by Paul, who would turn the idle tale into
reality.

Ben:clap

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there.

Fact? Nonsense!

 

[Ben Masada]

If the removal of the body from the tomb was not a fact but nonsense, how do you explain that the tom was empty? Think it through and ponder, in order not to mar your credibility.

Ben

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If the removal of the body from the tomb was not a fact but nonsense, how do you explain that the tom was empty?

What tomb. Where? What testimony? Confirmed how? According to whom?

 

[Charity]

If the removal of the body from the tomb was not a fact but nonsense, how do you explain that the tom was empty? Think it through and ponder, in order not to mar your credibility.

Ben

Who is Tom and how did he get in this discussion?

 

[Charity]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How do you know till you try me? I am also very open-minded to research anything
that eventually I could absorb into my understanding.

Ben

Try you, ooh la la....***he's very open minded***

 

[sojourner]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

That the emptiness of a tomb is no proof of resurrection.
That the emptiness of that tomb in the eyes of Mary Magdalene reminded her only
that someone had removed Jesus' body from there and that she didn't know where it had been transferred to. (John 20:15) Why didn't she think of the resurrection? Because Jesus had never told her of such a thing. His resurrection would have to wait for another 30 years to be proclaimed by Paul, who would turn the idle tale into
reality.

Ben:clap

You're right. The emptiness of the tomb isn't proof of resurrection. But Jesus' appearance post-crucifixion to his disciples is. You're conveniently forgetting those parts of the gospels.

Why didn't she think of the resurrection? Why wouldn't anybody think of the resurrection if the body of their loved one turned up missing? And, BTW, the resurrection was known of, but it was considered to occur on "the last day." (See John 11:24 -- "Martha said to him [Jesus], 'I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.'")

Indeed, his resurrection waited precisely about 30 seconds, not 30 years, when he appeared to her in the garden.

 

[Ben Masada]

And the point is, you wouldn't accept any findings.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would consider though. If I found it to make sense why would I not?

Ben:clap

 

[Ben Masada]

What tomb. Where? What testimony? Confirmed how? According to whom?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorry, but your questions make no sense. Where? Christians know where. What testimony? Daily Christian testimonies. Confirmed how? The tomb was empty, wasn't it? According to whom? Ask any Christian and he or she will confirm.

Ben:clap

 

[sojourner]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorry, but your questions make no sense. Where? Christians know where. What testimony? Daily Christian testimonies. Confirmed how? The tomb was empty, wasn't it? According to whom? Ask any Christian and he or she will confirm.

Ben:clap

Actually, we don't know where. And we admit that. Confirmed, not by the empty tomb, but by the testimony of the apostles, who saw him alive after his burial.

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Sojouner,
The Apostles of Jesus did see him alive but not after his burial. Take a look at Acts 1:3. Luke says that the disciples saw Jesus alive AFTER HIS PASSION and not after his burial. To appear alive after his passion does not mean he resurrected. It means he recovered. And that's exactly
what happened to Jesus. As he recovered from his wounds he started appearing to his disciples.
I bet you never thought about this, did you?

Ben