An Idle Tale

[Jayhawker Soule]

If the Apostles of Jesus lived three years with him, listening to him daily, considered the news about his resurrection an idle tale of women speaking nonsense, what does it say?

Other than second hand apologetics written decades later, how do you know what the "Apostles of Jesus" did, heard, or believed?

 

[Ben Masada]

Other than second hand apologetics written decades later, how do you know what the "Apostles of Jesus" did, heard, or believed?

I think I put down the quoatation that they considered the news an idle tale. (Luke 24:11) The truth is that there were no women giving those news because they had never seen anything of the sort, but the empty tomb. And the Apostles had never heard of such a thing until 30 years later when Paul showed up preaching about it. Proof of the fact is that they were in Jerusalem, I mean, the Nazarenes, and never had any problem with the regular Jews. As Paul showed up preaching about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, he for little didn't get killed.

Ben

 

[sandy whitelinger]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have as a gift from God the intellectual vision to see between the lines.
I never stay on the surfice of what is said. I go deeper where the pearls are found.
On the surfice swim those who are unprotected by the Divine oxygen.
I can breathe under the stormy waves of the trivialities of life.

Ben:clap

Calling personal delusions gifts from God does not make it so. Or are you speaking allegorically?

 

[Ben Masada]

Calling personal delusions gifts from God does not make it so. Or are you speaking allegorically?

You know how I am speaking, but you have to give some turns to make sure
your wounded Ego is satisfied first. Yes, I am speaking allegorically.

Ben

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Now, if we put ourselves together...

I’m already well put together, thank you.

...and then put together whatever we can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus...

Yes, let’s read all of it (although I think that will be a new experience for you).

...we will see that he did not resurrect.

No “we” won’t.

I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes sir...

Irrational exuberance doesn’t enhance your tale, yes! a tale.

...and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus' own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective "idle." Idle tale, they said. (Luke 24:11)

Not your first misrepresentation. The disciples were not quoted as saying that. That was a statement by the author who was not a disciple.

The women had reported the words of the "angel" that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing.

Absurd. First, if you are referring to the concept of resurrection from the dead (you’re really are not clear) the disciples were at the resurrection of Lazarus and presumably were aware of Old Testament resurrections. If you are referring specifically to the resurrection of Jesus, He told them, yet they did not understand it until after it happened. Luke was aware of it when he wrote about the transfiguration in 9:31, “Who appeared in glory and spoke of [Jesus’] decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.” Even the Pharisees were aware of it (Mathew 27:63).

They had no choice but to discard their report as an idle tale.

A conclusion made by you based on a false premise made by you.

Now, think: If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words, could not believe the report...

Because at the time they disbelieved the report they did not have all of the information that they were to receive, such as a visitation from Jesus Himself, or all the Biblical information of the resurrection that we have now.

..how can we be expected to, after almost two thousand years of listening to a tale that just won't get less idle?

Well, I suppose because we read all of Scripture and don't listen to you.

When did the disciples ever change their minds about that idle tale?

I would suppose when He appeared to them.

I wonder because about 30 years later, when Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had resurrected, he almost got killed. Why?

I don’t know, let’s say because the Jews failed to accept Christ as their Messiah and thought Paul was a traitor and was teaching what they thought were blasphemies which were punishable by death.

Was not the Sect of the Nazarenes headquartered in Jerusalem? Yes, but that Jesus had resurrected was not in their agenda.

Utterly meaningless.

The whole thing had been made up by Paul.

More of your unfounded and meaningless gibberish.

Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy. (II Tim. 2:8)

Once again you have trouble with the English language. II Timothy 2:8, “Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead….” Notice that he was reminding them (that necessitated them knowing it previous to that) not informing them.

Obviously, Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause, which turned out to be Christianity.

Obviously, since nothing you’ve said so far stands up to scrutiny, any conclusions you’ve reached based on fallacious arguments are false and disingenuous.

The resurrection of Jesus can be accepted only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection. And the refusal at the time to produce the body...

Once again an incorrect conclusion based on an incomplete presentation of all of the Scripture on the resurrection from the dead of Christ. You’re batting .000 so far.

... does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there.

Another conclusion based on your erroneous assumptions.

And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever, because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning. The disciple who removed Jesus' body from the tomb, most probably Joseph of Arimathea, had the whole night of Friday, and all for himself to act without any disturbance.

Let’s see, a faithful Jew, whom you’ve previously implied, probably had no concept that Christ was to resurrect, who was grieving the loss of his presumed savior and Messiah, skulked around on the Sabbath (which was punishable by death), rolled away a great stone (Matthew 27:60) by himself, stole a body, rolled the stone back, hid the body until he recovered from a supposed coma, until He reappeared to the disciples? Also add to this that Jesus, the Messiah, the Way, the Truth and the Life, the savior of all mankind, God incarnate, who cannot lie, was acquiescent to this deception.

Fiction and fantasy combined. Talk to your publisher. At least Og Mandino stuck to the standard plot when he made up his story.

And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that, by not doing it, even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it instead, as she herself declared she would. (John 20:15)

Another meaningless assertion based on a misrepresentation of Scripture. Magdalene had no intentions of stealing the body in order to perpetrate a hoax.

So, I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give
Paul the credit that's due him. (II Tim. 2:8)

We do.

Ben[/quote]

 

[Ben Masada]

I’m already well put together, thank you.


Yes, let’s read all of it (although I think that will be a new experience for you).


No “we” won’t.


Irrational exuberance doesn’t enhance your tale, yes! a tale.


Not your first misrepresentation. The disciples were not quoted as saying that. That was a statement by the author who was not a disciple.


Absurd. First, if you are referring to the concept of resurrection from the dead (you’re really are not clear) the disciples were at the resurrection of Lazarus and presumably were aware of Old Testament resurrections. If you are referring specifically to the resurrection of Jesus, He told them, yet they did not understand it until after it happened. Luke was aware of it when he wrote about the transfiguration in 9:31, “Who appeared in glory and spoke of [Jesus’] decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.” Even the Pharisees were aware of it (Mathew 27:63).


A conclusion made by you based on a false premise made by you.


Because at the time they disbelieved the report they did not have all of the information that they were to receive, such as a visitation from Jesus Himself, or all the Biblical information of the resurrection that we have now.



Well, I suppose because we read all of Scripture and don't listen to you.




I would suppose when He appeared to them.


I don’t know, let’s say because the Jews failed to accept Christ as their Messiah and thought Paul was a traitor and was teaching what they thought were blasphemies which were punishable by death.


Utterly meaningless.


More of your unfounded and meaningless gibberish.


Once again you have trouble with the English language. II Timothy 2:8, “Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead….” Notice that he was reminding them (that necessitated them knowing it previous to that) not informing them.


Obviously, since nothing you’ve said so far stands up to scrutiny, any conclusions you’ve reached based on fallacious arguments are false and disingenuous.


Once again an incorrect conclusion based on an incomplete presentation of all of the Scripture on the resurrection from the dead of Christ. You’re batting .000 so far.


Another conclusion based on your erroneous assumptions.


Let’s see, a faithful Jew, whom you’ve previously implied, probably had no concept that Christ was to resurrect, who was grieving the loss of his presumed savior and Messiah, skulked around on the Sabbath (which was punishable by death), rolled away a great stone (Matthew 27:60) by himself, stole a body, rolled the stone back, hid the body until he recovered from a supposed coma, until He reappeared to the disciples? Also add to this that Jesus, the Messiah, the Way, the Truth and the Life, the savior of all mankind, God incarnate, who cannot lie, was acquiescent to this deception.

Fiction and fantasy combined. Talk to your publisher. At least Og Mandino stuck to the standard plot when he made up his story.


Another meaningless assertion based on a misrepresentation of Scripture. Magdalene had no intentions of stealing the body in order to perpetrate a hoax.

We do.

Ben

[/quote]


I am sorry Sandy, but you have been infected by the virus of faith which has spoiled
your mind for any kind of knowledge. You are locked up into yourself with patches on
each side of your eyes. You can see only on one direction and not too farther ahead
of your nose. I am sorry for you because according to Hosea 4:6, you are perishing
not only for lack of knowledge but also with the lack of stamina to want to know.
What else can I say about you but that you are beyond repair?
Well, that's what faith produces: Blindness without cure.


Ben :slap:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Not your first misrepresentation. The disciples were not quoted as saying that. That was a statement by the author who was not a disciple.

Did you mean Apostle? I'm a disciple.

Let’s see, a faithful Jew, whom you’ve previously implied, probably had no concept that Christ was to resurrect, who was grieving the loss of his presumed savior and Messiah, skulked around on the Sabbath (which was punishable by death), rolled away a great stone (Matthew 27:60) by himself, stole a body, rolled the stone back, hid the body until he recovered from a supposed coma, until He reappeared to the disciples? Also add to this that Jesus, the Messiah, the Way, the Truth and the Life, the savior of all mankind, God incarnate, who cannot lie, was acquiescent to this deception.

True and remember the Roman Guards that were there to secure the tomb so Jesus would not be taken out. It my understanding a guard would be put to death for failing something this crucial.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am sorry Sandy, but you have been infected by the virus of faith which has spoiled
your mind for any kind of knowledge. You are locked up into yourself with patches on
each side of your eyes. You can see only on one direction and not too farther ahead
of your nose. I am sorry for you because according to Hosea 4:6, you are perishing
not only for lack of knowledge but also with the lack of stamina to want to know. What else can I say about you but that you are beyond repair? Well, that's what faith
produces: Blindness without cure.

Ben:slap:[/quote]This is the best you can do...unfounded criticism to deflect a cogent disection of the rubbish you post here? Poor, Ben, very poor.
Sandy-> :slap:,<-Ben I slap back!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

[/b]

Did you mean Apostle? I'm a disciple.

No, I meant disciple: refer back to what I was rebutting. Ben used the term "disciple." Either way works though.

True and remember the Roman Guards that were there to secure the tomb so Jesus would not be taken out. It my understanding a guard would be put to death for failing something this crucial.

Again refer back to Ben's argument. Christ was entombed on Friday and the guards were posted the next day according to the text. It could be argued though that the next day began at sundown, ergo there was no time for Joseph to do this fictitious deed.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

No, I meant disciple: refer back to what I was rebutting. Ben used the term "disciple." Either way works though.



Again refer back to Ben's argument. Christ was entombed on Friday and the guards were posted the next day according to the text. It could be argued though that the next day began at sundown, ergo there was no time for Joseph to do this fictitious deed.

Yes, I find the whole Weekend at Burney's theory a little odd as well.

 

[Ben Masada]

[/b]

Did you mean Apostle? I'm a disciple.



True and remember the Roman Guards that were there to secure the tomb so Jesus would not be taken out. It my understanding a guard would be put to death for failing something this crucial.

The guards were put to watch the tomb late in the morning of Saturday.
The tomb got empty during that Friday before. I would do anything to laugh at
the Romans for the trick the Jews played on them to seal and watch an empty tomb.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

No, I meant disciple: refer back to what I was rebutting. Ben used the term "disciple." Either way works though.



Again refer back to Ben's argument. Christ was entombed on Friday and the guards were posted the next day according to the text. It could be argued though that the next day began at sundown, ergo there was no time for Joseph to do this fictitious deed.

Believe it or not, Joseph did his doing about an hour or two that Friday after Jesus had been laid in Joseph's walk-in tomb. I have been to this tomb in Jerusalem. One could very well be laid there and never to sufocate if he was still alive, as Jesus was.
Joseph did that in order to return when no one was around. And because it was Shabbat, the place was absolutely deserted during the hours of the Sabbath.

If you find hard to believe that Joseph would remove Jesus from that tomb, read John 20:15. If Joseph had not done that first, Mary Magdalene would have done it herself.

Ben

 

[Jeremy Mason]

The guards were put to watch the tomb late in the morning of Saturday.
The tomb got empty during that Friday before. I would do anything to laugh at
the Romans for the trick the Jews played on them to seal and watch an empty tomb.

Ben

Yeah, those silly Romans. They botched-up the execution and were late for the big escape. They couldn't have possibly seen that one coming. Here's the problem, the Apostles were hiding for their lives and no one else, especially the Jews, wanted him coming out of his grave. Do you really think no one...not one person would have seen this cumbersome act of rolling a stone away from a grave and taking a pulverized man away. This attempt to validate Jesus living through all this mayhem and three days later bouncing back as if he just gotten over a cold is laughable to say the least.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yeah, those silly Romans. They botched-up the execution and were late for the big escape. They couldn't have possibly seen that one coming. Here's the problem, the Apostles were hiding for their lives and no one else, especially the Jews, wanted him coming out of his grave. Do you really think no one...not one person would have seen this cumbersome act of rolling a stone away from a grave and taking a pulverized man away. This attempt to validate Jesus living through all this mayhem and three days later bouncing back as if he just gotten over a cold is laughable to say the least.

Three days!!! Jeremy, my dear friend, what are you talking about? I am positive that Jesus did not spend even three hours in that tomb. Perhaps an hour, no more than two.

You wonder if nobody saw such a cumbersome work being done by Joseph. Have you
ever been to a cementery in Israel on the Shabbat? I live in Israel. I know what I am talking about. In a cementery in Israel, "not even a Jewish fly" approaches it. So much so that funerals are forbidden on the Shabbat. A religious Jew would never be caught alive in a cementery on the Shabbat, let alone Priests as the Gentile who wrote the first Gospel claims. Those guys who wrote the gospels didn't know the ABC about Judaism.

Ben :ignore:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Three days!!! Jeremy, my dear friend, what are you talking about? I am positive that Jesus did not spend even three hours in that tomb. Perhaps an hour, no more than two.

You wonder if nobody saw such a cumbersome work being done by Joseph. Have you
ever been to a cementery in Israel on the Shabbat? I live in Israel. I know what I am talking about. In a cementery in Israel, "not even a Jewish fly" approaches it. So much so that funerals are forbidden on the Shabbat. A religious Jew would never be caught alive in a cementery on the Shabbat, let alone Priests as the Gentile who wrote the first Gospel claims. Those guys who wrote the gospels didn't know the ABC about Judaism.

Ben :ignore:

Your comparison of a typical Sabbath day in a cemetery fails to describe the sheer anticipation of the Jews, Roman's and followers who were well aware of Jesus' predictions of his resurrection. To assume that no one witnessed this outrageous act of contempt to all who were involved, speaks volumes about your gullibility or morbidness in attempting to circumvent the character and honesty of Jesus.

 

[Ben Masada]

Your comparison of a typical Sabbath day in a cemetery fails to describe the sheer anticipation of the Jews, Roman's and followers who were well aware of Jesus' predictions of his resurrection. To assume that no one witnessed this outrageous act of contempt to all who were involved, speaks volumes about your gullibility or morbidness in attempting to circumvent the character and honesty of Jesus.

Let me tell you something you do not know. Until about 30 years after Jesus' death, nobody had ever heard that he had been the Messiah,
son of God, or that he had resurrected. His followers, the Nazarenes were headquartered in Jerusalem and getting along quite well with
mainstream Judaism. Then, Paul showed up preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. Withing 15 days
no longer, the Jews were on an uproar to kill him for preaching heresy.


Now, you think it through and tell me what kind of gospel were the Nazarenes preaching in Israel for 30 years to get along with the regular Jews?

Listen, the Apostles themselves were as much suprised as were the rest of the Jews with those news about Jesus. It means that Paul had fabricated
the whole thing in the Christology that he built himself to explain how a man dead already for 30 years could still be the Messiah.


There is something else. Paul never believed for a second that Jesus was the Messiah. He was a genius. He knew of other Jews who had proclaimed
themselves Messiahs and had failed. Paul decided to do it differently. He proclaimed himself the Messiah by proxy in the person of a dead Jew called Jesus.
Any intelligent person can see that the real Messiah of Christianity was Paul himself. He succeeded because his Cause triumphed as to become the religious giant that it has become.


Ben:shout

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Believe it or not...

Not!

If you find hard to believe that Joseph would remove Jesus from that tomb, read John 20:15. If Joseph had not done that first, Mary Magdalene would have done it herself.

I've already rebutted this fantasy.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Let me tell you something you do not know. Until about 30 years after Jesus' death, nobody had ever heard that he had been the Messiah,
son of God, or that he had resurrected. His followers, the Nazarenes were headquartered in Jerusalem and getting along quite well with
mainstream Judaism. Then, Paul showed up preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. Withing 15 days
no longer, the Jews were on an uproar to kill him for preaching heresy.


Now, you think it through and tell me what kind of gospel were the Nazarenes preaching in Israel for 30 years to get along with the regular Jews?

Listen, the Apostles themselves were as much suprised as were the rest of the Jews with those news about Jesus. It means that Paul had fabricated
the whole thing in the Christology that he built himself to explain how a man dead already for 30 years could still be the Messiah.


There is something else. Paul never believed for a second that Jesus was the Messiah. He was a genius. He knew of other Jews who had proclaimed
themselves Messiahs and had failed. Paul decided to do it differently. He proclaimed himself the Messiah by proxy in the person of a dead Jew called Jesus.
Any intelligent person can see that the real Messiah of Christianity was Paul himself. He succeeded because his Cause triumphed as to become the religious giant that it has become.


Ben:shout

Get this to your publisher immediately before someone steals this fantasy and you lose your royalties.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yeah, those silly Romans. They botched-up the execution and were late for the big escape. They couldn't have possibly seen that one coming. Here's the problem, the Apostles were hiding for their lives and no one else, especially the Jews, wanted him coming out of his grave. Do you really think no one...not one person would have seen this cumbersome act of rolling a stone away from a grave and taking a pulverized man away. This attempt to validate Jesus living through all this mayhem and three days later bouncing back as if he just gotten over a cold is laughable to say the least.

Yes, but you have to understand, Paul orchestrated the greatest hoax of all time. Ben has notes, photos and recordings from the staff meeting where this was all planned.

I always liked what G. Gordon Liddy said about this. He noted that some of the brightest and most powerful men in the government of the most powerful nation on earth couldn't coverup a simple burglary. How then did ignorant and unlearned men, far removed from power cover up the stealing of a body and it's subsequent reappearance.

 

[Ben Masada]

Get this to your publisher immediately before someone steals this fantasy and you lose your royalties.

You find easier to ignore what I wrote above because you have no knowledge whatsoever of the book of Acts of the Apostles and the Letters of Paul.
This himself in a letter to Timothy, said that "Jesus was a descendant of David, and had resurrected, according to his gospel." (II Tim. 2:8)
What does it mean, according to the gospel he was preaching? Opposite to what gospel? Obviously the gospel of the Apostles of Jesus whom
Paul didn't even go up to Jerusalem to meet them before starting his ministry. (Gal. 1:16,17)


Ben :clap