An interesting view of Atheism

[rosends]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
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There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.

 

[Revoltingest]

Religion is the lens thru which believers see the world & their actions,
but I suspect that they do good things because they & innately want to.

Revoltistanian mythology......
I cursed my plight of having no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet.
Then I took his shoes, & felt better.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.

Why would this be problematic? It sounds like a very astute observation to me.

 

[rosends]

Why would this be problematic? It sounds like a very astute observation to me.

This is why I wonder. I find that there is rarely a story with only one side.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.

Wow. I do not see that as problematic. Thats very insightful. Cant think of the right words to use right now.

 

[Aset's Flames]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.

I find it very interesting that non-believers and those who form their own beliefs tend to house some of the most moral souls.

 

[Valjean]

A good observation. Internalised morality vs external scaffolding. Morality vs dogma.

 

[Aset's Flames]

A good observation. Internalised morality vs external scaffolding. Morality vs dogma.

Exactly, if Aset was evil I would not worship her and I do not define all that she does as good. She has made mistakes in the past and has tried her best to amend them.

Mortality should come from within.

 

[icehorse]

Religion often employs "fear driven" morality. That should be suspect from the get-go.

 

[Mooba]

That is very similar to the essence of Christianity which basically teaches that it is one thing to do good and become a tamed animal by being taught rules and regulations, and using pride, ego, fear, and self righteousness to pretend to be moral.... But it is totally another thing when genuine goodness, morality and holiness springs from the Holy Spirit in the human spirit when the outward man (soul, reasoning, ego) does not block or hijack and distort the flow of grace and goodness coming from the Holy Spirit in the human spirit. A genuinely humble ego (not fake humility) helps one act as from a inner sense of right which flows out from the Holy Spirit within their human spirit.

What happens when someone does not have the Holy Spirit or divine nature in their human spirit? They are still spiritually dead though they can still be moral to some extent. But this is only a Christian perspective, and leads to another subject.

 

[Revoltingest]

What happens when someone does not have the Holy Spirit or divine nature in their human spirit? They are still spiritually dead though they can still be moral to some extent.

The underlined portion seems a bit stingy with praise.
I'm OK with being spiritually dead though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.

Really very lovely! Thanks.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I find it very interesting that non-believers and those who form their own beliefs tend to house some of the most moral souls.

"Tend to" ... based on what evidence?

 

[cosmicwings]

Religion is the lens thru which believers see the world & their actions,
but I suspect that they do good things because they & innately want to.

Revoltistanian mythology......
I cursed my plight of having no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet.
Then I took his shoes, & felt better.

 

[cosmicwings]

Hmmmm or.... like Mahatma Ghandi who was trying to get on a moving train ; lost one of his shoes and a student saw him throw his other shoe onto the line and asked" Master why did you do that? '' and the reply was'" well one shoe is no good to a poor person with no shoes is it!!!!{{ Food for thought !!!!

 

[rosends]

What happens when someone does not have the Holy Spirit or divine nature in their human spirit? They are still spiritually dead though they can still be moral to some extent. But this is only a Christian perspective, and leads to another subject.

calling them spiritually dead leads me to 2 thoughts -- one is that an atheist might not be troubled by this if he doesn't see any value in the notion of "spirit" in the first place, but the second is that being told that I can be "moral to some extent" and still be spiritually dead (as an atheist or as a member of another religion) seems rather insulting.

 

[Bogg]

I find this very comforting as someone who was brought up in a strict religion and who now class myself as athiest. I don't think I ever really believed but I find now that most of the people I meet have never had a religious background and are some of the most moral and loving people I know! This confused me at first but in comparison to some that had God in their lives, they were much better people. Of course there is good on all sides if the fence but it does prove to me at least that if a person is inherentantly moral and good then it doesn't matter if you are religious or not, or as some say spiritually dead!

 

[Aset's Flames]

"Tend to" ... based on what evidence?

Of all the people I have ever met in my known existance, I have never met someone who made their own religion based on their feelings and was more evil than good.

 

[ramana]

I find this very comforting as someone who was brought up in a strict religion and who now class myself as athiest. I don't think I ever really believed but I find now that most of the people I meet have never had a religious background and are some of the most moral and loving people I know! This confused me at first but in comparison to some that had God in their lives, they were much better people. Of course there is good on all sides if the fence but it does prove to me at least that if a person is inherentantly moral and good then it doesn't matter if you are religious or not, or as some say spiritually dead!

Absolutely true, I too was brought up in a cult, a very cruel cult that splits up families over doctrines invented by their world leaders. In actual fact atheists have one of the lowest divorce rates, Jews and Pentecostals are far higher, though I admit this cult had a low divorce rate due to the incredible fear they live under and family connections.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.

It seems a little muddled to me. The message seems to be that theists should pretend to be an atheist when they want to help somebody practically?