An Open Challenge To Creationists

[YoursTrue]

I appreciate your thoughtful response. God is not directly responsible for bad decisions people make. God is responsible for creating creatures capable of making bad decisions.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the free-will part. I somewhat agree with you about the part of programming them in advance. However, the problem with free-will is we do not get to choose the list of choices we get to choose from. Unless we have omnipotent powers, our true morality is never tested. Many times we are forced to choose the lesser of two evils. Many times the stresses of modern living push over edges we would not otherwise go under more favorable conditions.

God could have created us with omnipotent powers but He did not. Maybe God did not put too much thought into the Universe He created. Rather than conscious effort maybe all the matter and energy in the Universe came from an overflowing abundance coming out of God. God is perfect and whole. The Universe is not God and full of imperfections. I think it is these imperfections that are the source of all the evil in the World.

And finally, the idea "subject to His will" is difficult for me to accept. As I said and omnipotent God has no needs or desires. It seems to me the idea of being subject to His will is really the idea of the divine rights of kings:

Divine right of kings - Wikipedia

"His will" is not God's will but the human king on Earth supposedly representing God. The Bible is promoting a particular type of government call monarchy. I think the Bible was written by men so the men in power can use it to condition the masses to be obedient to authority. King James was not a nice person:

The True Law of Free Monarchies - Wikipedia

I think the act of sharing with others brings us closer to our God and our God's true nature rather than being obedient to authority or worshiping the words in the Bible a particular way.

Hello. I can't go over every thoughtful point you make right now (perhaps later I'll take your points one by one, because there are certainly interesting topics associated), but I will say this: if there are no guidelines, people will make their own decisions. I'm going to try to keep it simple using an analogy. If a parent tells a child, "I want you to come right home after school," the child has clear idea of what his parent wants. Putting myself in that child's shoes, if I choose to disobey my parent's wishes, I know I am overstepping the line. My conscience tells me I am guilty.

 

[YoursTrue]

So, bottom line, you can present no evidence for creationism. I didn't think so and neither did the peanut gallery.

There have been many threads like this one over the years and in all that time no one has ever been able to present any evidence for creationism. Your tap dance was no better or worse than any of the others. Sad.

When I consider creation rather than mindless (yes mindless) evolution which can't help itself from supposedly evolving, I find it noteworthy that only humans make clothes for themselves. There's quite a gap from other forms of life in that area.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When I consider creation rather than mindless (yes mindless) evolution which can't help itself from supposedly evolving, I find it noteworthy that only humans make clothes for themselves. There's quite a gap from other forms of life in that area.

Caterpillars spin cocoons, spiders build webs, birds build nests, beavers build dams. Living things have traits that make them unique. Having a particular trait does not falsify evolution. You are simply focusing on clothing as some sort of grail , because you cannot conceptualize that which you have been indoctrinated to reject on some church doctrine.

 

[ecco]

But that doesn't mean that evolution is neither true nor false.

Why do you keep avoiding the question?

The question is not about a definition of the word "evidence".

The question is not about whether or not evolution is true.

The question is whether any Fundamentalist Creationist can provide any evidence for Creationism.

Stop ducking and dodging. Either present your evidence or admit you have none.

 

[ecco]

... but conditional e.g. on that no god created the universe e.g. 6000 years ago

Please show evidence that a god "created the universe e.g. 6000 years ago".

Got none? I'm not surprised.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

The question is not about a definition of the word "evidence".

...

Nice, so evidence means anything I like and work how I want it to, because I say so.
You don't exist because I say so and that the evidence is that I say so.
Could you try again?

Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Please show evidence that a god "created the universe e.g. 6000 years ago".

Got none? I'm not surprised.

Please explain how evidence works and what it assumes.

 

[ecco]

You can't with science say that religion is wrong.

No one is saying religion is wrong.* What I and others are saying is that Creationism is wrong. What I and others have asked for is evidence supporting Creationism. Ya got any? No? Thought so.


*Religion is the belief in and the worship of gods. We all know that people believe in and worship gods. That is undeniable. Some people also believe in the Loch Ness Monster and fairies and ghosts and all sorts of silly stuff.

 

[ecco]

Nice, so evidence means anything I like and work how I want it to, because I say so.
You don't exist because I say so and that the evidence is that I say so.
Could you try again?

Mikkel

So, you take one piece of my response out of context and make a silly comment.

You need to do that because you cannot address the question of this thread...

Why do you keep avoiding the question?

The question is not about a definition of the word "evidence".

The question is not about whether or not evolution is true.

The question is whether any Fundamentalist Creationist can provide any evidence for Creationism.

Stop ducking and dodging. Either present your evidence or admit you have none.

Who do you think you are fooling? OK, that was rhetorical. You are fooling no one. Notice, I made no comment about looking foolish - that's also obvious to any and all.

 

[ecco]

Please explain how evidence works and what it assumes.

Your need to ask such a question does not hide the fact that you have no evidence for your beliefs. Beliefs that Einstein referred to as "childish".

 

[dfnj]

Hello. I can't go over every thoughtful point you make right now (perhaps later I'll take your points one by one, because there are certainly interesting topics associated), but I will say this: if there are no guidelines, people will make their own decisions. I'm going to try to keep it simple using an analogy. If a parent tells a child, "I want you to come right home after school," the child has clear idea of what his parent wants. Putting myself in that child's shoes, if I choose to disobey my parent's wishes, I know I am overstepping the line. My conscience tells me I am guilty.

Yes, parents need to teach their children how to be responsible. Child need structure and rules. However, sometimes you have to think outside the box to be a creative problem solver. There has to be a balance with listening to authority outside of ourselves. And learning how to listen to our own inner authority.

But this has nothing to do with God. The mind of God is incomprehensible. The men who wrote the Bible are pretending to know the mind of God. Nobody really knows what God is thinking. At best we can say the Bible was divinely inspired. But reality, it is probably the height of human hubris and possible man's greatest possible sin to pretend to know the mind of God. Because to pretend the know the mind of God means you are one with God's mind. If you are one with God's mind then you ARE God. People pretending to be God has got to be a sin. As I said, nobody knows what God is thinking.

And based on human experiments, there seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. So I think it's up to us to be our own guides when it comes to which rules are worth obeying. I think the secular laws we have are doing a fine job. But I do know this about the golden rule. If you cause other people suffering you will experience suffering in your own life in equal proportion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No one is saying religion is wrong.* What I and others are saying is that Creationism is wrong. What I and others have asked for is evidence supporting Creationism. Ya got any? No? Thought so.


*Religion is the belief in and the worship of gods. We all know that people believe in and worship gods. That is undeniable. Some people also believe in the Loch Ness Monster and fairies and ghosts and all sorts of silly stuff.

The 2 other posts end here, because it is where the meat is.
So just so we got it clear, whether I am a creationist or not, that has no relevance to whether Creationism is wrong.
So I got what I wanted, namely you saying, that Creationism is wrong.

And here we hit the first problem:
Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do

Now how is that so? Well, the sort answer is that by definition science can't say anything about supernatural explanations.
So science can't say that Creationism is neither right nor wrong. Well, by definition methodological naturalism assumes that the world is natural, where as Creationism assumes that the world is created by God.

So now it is your turn. Prove and not just assume that the world is natural and you can prove that Creationism is wrong.
Now I will show you what you are up against:
Part 1:
Cosmology is science, right? Well, not really, it is also philosophy:
The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'Viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the universe are the same for all observers.' This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists. Astronomer William C. Keel, The Road to Galaxy Formation (2nd ed.). Springer-Praxis.

Notice this part "the strongly philosophical statement". Now how come it is not the scientific law of cosmology, but rather philosophy. Note this is by a scientist, William C. Keel. Well, now it gets weird. Because evidence is not absolute, it is conditional. What is it conditional on? That the universe is knowable and playing fair with the scientists.
So how is that?

Part 2:
Well, now it gets even weirder. Enter a Boltzmann Brain, Read up on it if you have to. Here is a variant of a Boltzmann Brain universe; it consists of a computer and a power source. Now imagine that on the computer is you running as program and the rest of the universe as it appears to you is a simulation on the computer. Now this you are reading now is a part of the simulation.
So how do you know that the universe is playing fair with you and that the computer screen in front of you is there as a computer screen independent of your experience of it?
You don't apparently. That is how you understand that science and evidence is conditional on the assumption, that the universe is knowable and fair.

Part 3:
That is the explanation of how science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations. So I don't have to give evidence for Creationism. I just have to assume that the universe is created by God. And now it is your turn. Prove that Creationism is wrong.
But apparently you can't. You can just do it differently and assume that the universe is natural.

You see, I don't have to show to you evidence for Creationism. I just have to explain to you the limit of science.
I.e. there is a difference between methodological and metaphysical naturalism. The first is an assumption, what apparently works. The second is a belief without evidence.

Part 4:
So far in the recorded history of how knowledge works, nobody have been able to solve that one; namely what what the universe really is independently of the mind of the single individual. That seems to include you and I. Of course I am open to you claiming, that you can do it, but it hasn't be solved in 2000+ years. And so far nobody has been able to do that.

Mikkel

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

When I consider creation rather than mindless (yes mindless) evolution which can't help itself from supposedly evolving, I find it noteworthy that only humans make clothes for themselves.

Why?

There's quite a gap from other forms of life in that area.

How so?
Where's the actual "gap", other then our species doing something that other species aren't and why is it a problem for evolution?

 

[YoursTrue]

Please show evidence that a god "created the universe e.g. 6000 years ago".

Got none? I'm not surprised.

You probably know the Bible uses the word 'day' in various ways. It does not have to mean a 24-hour period. According to many, and I agree, the word day as used in the description of creating the heavens and the earth refers to a period of time with an opening and a closing. Each day could have been thousands of years, if not longer. And of course, many realize that a 'day' can start with the evening sundown in some respects. Notice, if you will, that the 7th 'day' of the creative days is not said to be over. The first six days are completed, not the 7th day.

 

[McBell]

You probably know the Bible uses the word 'day' in various ways. It does not have to mean a 24-hour period. According to many, and I agree, the word day as used in the description of creating the heavens and the earth refers to a period of time with an opening and a closing. Each day could have been thousands of years, if not longer. And of course, many realize that a 'day' can start with the evening sundown in some respects. Notice, if you will, that the 7th 'day' of the creative days is not said to be over. The first six days are completed, not the 7th day.

That is a nice little sermon.
Short, sweet, irrelevant to the post you quoted....

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, parents need to teach their children how to be responsible. Child need structure and rules. However, sometimes you have to think outside the box to be a creative problem solver. There has to be a balance with listening to authority outside of ourselves. And learning how to listen to our own inner authority.

But this has nothing to do with God. The mind of God is incomprehensible. The men who wrote the Bible are pretending to know the mind of God. Nobody really knows what God is thinking. At best we can say the Bible was divinely inspired. But reality, it is probably the height of human hubris and possible man's greatest possible sin to pretend to know the mind of God. Because to pretend the know the mind of God means you are one with God's mind. If you are one with God's mind then you ARE God. People pretending to be God has got to be a sin. As I said, nobody knows what God is thinking.

And based on human experiments, there seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. So I think it's up to us to be our own guides when it comes to which rules are worth obeying. I think the secular laws we have are doing a fine job. But I do know this about the golden rule. If you cause other people suffering you will experience suffering in your own life in equal proportion.

When I finally studied the Bible, I began taking into account the prophets, and the writings of Moses. He claimed to have encounters with God. I have no reason to believe he did not, and while many would contest the written history in the Bible of the Jews, Jesus, and the Christians who followed him, I no longer do, because I believe what the Bible is saying about that after a long study of it. There will be an end to wickedness and evil on the earth someday because it is foretold. Just as I firmly believe that God created the heavens and the earth 'in the beginning,' I realize there is not a detailed description of how He did it.
Psychiatrists can't really understand others' minds or even their own minds, we can't really understand our own minds, so how can we know God's mind, except He gave, let's say, the Ten Commandments and the Law--what he wanted people to do. Or not do. And He set the Israelites free from Egyptian bondage. Yet they went on their own course in many cases after that, sinning against God.
So here is where I ask you a question: why do you think there is so much evil and misery in this world? Agreed that distorted religious beliefs have made a horrific stamp on society. But this is being allowed by God now, it's a bigger picture than you or me. Yet if a person cries out to God, He hears. All suffering and evil will end some day. (Revelation 21:1-5) Can I say I understand it all? No, but this is what I have learned. God permits it for a reason. The present world situation is an example of man leading man to his detriment.
Ecclesiastes 8:9 - "All this I saw, keeping my mind on all the work that was done under the sun, at a time when man had control of man to his own harm."
Right at the beginning, Eve was told after she ate what God told her not to eat, that she would not be happy because Adam would dominate her, not to her happiness.
Can I explain the mind of God? Not really, but I understand some things. And that makes me happi-er than if I did not understand them.
1 Corinthians 11 - O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has first given to God,
that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, parents need to teach their children how to be responsible. Child need structure and rules. However, sometimes you have to think outside the box to be a creative problem solver. There has to be a balance with listening to authority outside of ourselves. And learning how to listen to our own inner authority.

But this has nothing to do with God. The mind of God is incomprehensible. The men who wrote the Bible are pretending to know the mind of God. Nobody really knows what God is thinking. At best we can say the Bible was divinely inspired. But reality, it is probably the height of human hubris and possible man's greatest possible sin to pretend to know the mind of God. Because to pretend the know the mind of God means you are one with God's mind. If you are one with God's mind then you ARE God. People pretending to be God has got to be a sin. As I said, nobody knows what God is thinking.

And based on human experiments, there seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. So I think it's up to us to be our own guides when it comes to which rules are worth obeying. I think the secular laws we have are doing a fine job. But I do know this about the golden rule. If you cause other people suffering you will experience suffering in your own life in equal proportion.

When I finally studied the Bible, I began taking into account the prophets, and the writings of Moses. He claimed to have encounters with God. I have no reason to believe he did not, and while many would contest the written history in the Bible of the Jews, Jesus, and the Christians who followed him, I no longer do, because I believe what the Bible is saying about that after a long study of it. There will be an end to wickedness and evil on the earth someday because it is foretold. Just as I firmly believe that God created the heavens and the earth 'in the beginning,' I realize there is not a detailed description of how He did it.
Psychiatrists can't really understand others' minds or even their own minds, we can't really understand our own minds, so how can we know God's mind, except He gave, let's say, the Ten Commandments and the Law--what he wanted people to do. Or not do. And He set the Israelites free from Egyptian bondage. Yet they went on their own course in many cases after that, sinning against God.
So here is where I ask you a question: why do you think there is so much evil and misery in this world? Agreed that distorted religious beliefs have made a horrific stamp on society. But this is being allowed by God now, it's a bigger picture than you or me. Yet if a person cries out to God, He hears. All suffering and evil will end some day. (Revelation 21:1-5) Can I say I understand it all? No, but this is what I have learned. God permits it for a reason. The present world situation is an example of man leading man to his detriment.
Ecclesiastes 8:9 - "All this I saw, keeping my mind on all the work that was done under the sun, at a time when man had control of man to his own harm."
Right at the beginning, Eve was told after she ate what God told her not to eat, that she would not be happy because Adam would dominate her, not to her happiness.
Can I explain the mind of God? Not really, but I understand some things. And that makes me happi-er than if I did not understand them.
1 Corinthians 11 - O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has first given to God,
that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[YoursTrue]

Your need to ask such a question does not hide the fact that you have no evidence for your beliefs. Beliefs that Einstein referred to as "childish".

I've been reading Einstein's biography, and he, like others, had an imaginative mind.
1 Corinthians 1:20 "What becomes of a philosopher? of a scholar? of a scientist? did not God make the world’s wisdom foolish?"
21 - For since in God’s wisdom the world had not through wisdom known God, God was pleased to save believers through the foolishness of the preached message.

 

[dfnj]

When I finally studied the Bible,

I've studied many of the World's religions.

When I finally studied the Bible,
I began taking into account the prophets, and the writings of Moses. He claimed to have encounters with God. I have no reason to believe he did not, and while many would contest the written history in the Bible of the Jews, Jesus, and the Christians who followed him, I no longer do, because I believe what the Bible is saying about that after a long study of it. There will be an end to wickedness and evil on the earth someday because it is foretold. Just as I firmly believe that God created the heavens and the earth 'in the beginning,' I realize there is not a detailed description of how He did it.
Psychiatrists can't really understand others' minds or even their own minds, we can't really understand our own minds, so how can we know God's mind, except He gave, let's say, the Ten Commandments and the Law--what he wanted people to do. Or not do. And He set the Israelites free from Egyptian bondage. Yet they went on their own course in many cases after that, sinning against God.

I don't think Jewish people or Israelites where special enough for God to talk to them directly. I think it's all made up delusional stuff written by men who were inspired by the desire to have power over people though religious manipulation.

So here is where I ask you a question: why do you think there is so much evil and misery in this world?

Here's my answer why we have so much much evil and misery in the World. The idea has to with Apophatic theology and how we define God. God is perfect, whole, and complete. Being perfect, whole, and complete, God does not have any needs or desires. Since our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World, since God has no evil, God is absolute goodness. Or in other words since God has no need or desire to judge anyone then God is All-loving.

God did not create the Universe out of some need or desire. God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance of energy. But our Universe is not perfect, whole, and complete like God. Our Universe is full of imperfections. Nature is full of imperfections. Our human bodies are full of imperfections. It is these imperfections in the Universe, nature, and in ourselves that is the source of all our suffering, evil, and misery.

The only way God could have prevented all the suffering in the World would have been by creating each of us with omnipotent powers. Only by having omnipotent powers would we be strong enough to overcome all our imperfections. The thing is if we have omnipotent powers then we would not be separate from God. We would be one with the mind of God. We would be God. God did not create us as clones of Himself.

We were all created to fulfill our part in God's plan. And that plan is we exist to realize God's omnipotence. We exist so God can share in our experiences of having limitations by God sharing in our experiences of love, joy, frustration, suffering, and death. Every choice we make is God realizing what would happen if. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe were over an unimaginable amount of time God gets to experience every possible choice we can make.

This way of thinking seems logical to me as long as you accept the assumptions I making. You can't prove an assumption. Assumptions are chosen to be true.

My way of thinking has a really interesting twist to the Adam and Eve creation story. The story is not about sin. The story is about making peace with the tree of knowledge. Once we discover our own imperfections, we are not really cast out from Eden. We just no longer experience it. Many times when people find out they were created with imperfections we turn to our creators and hate them. We hate our creators because they are responsible for all our weaknesses. And our weaknesses are the source of all our suffering. We love our parents for their strengths. But we hate our parents for their weaknesses. This is because our parent's strengths are our strengths. Our parent's weaknesses are our weaknesses. It's only when we accept who we are and love ourselves in spite of our own imperfections that we are able to have a good relationship with our parents.

The same is true for God. We love God for our strengths. We hate God for not creating us with omnipotent powers. We have to stop judging God. Until we make peace with the tree of knowledge, that is, make peace with our own imperfections in ourselves, the people around us, nature, the Universe we will not be capable of fully loving and appreciating all of God's blessings flowing all around us. Once we make peace with the tree of knowledge we are able to experience again some of the good parts of Eden we lost when we were expelled.

Agreed that distorted religious beliefs have made a horrific stamp on society. But this is being allowed by God now, it's a bigger picture than you or me. Yet if a person cries out to God, He hears. All suffering and evil will end some day. (Revelation 21:1-5) Can I say I understand it all? No, but this is what I have learned. God permits it for a reason. The present world situation is an example of man leading man to his detriment.
Ecclesiastes 8:9 - "All this I saw, keeping my mind on all the work that was done under the sun, at a time when man had control of man to his own harm."
Right at the beginning, Eve was told after she ate what God told her not to eat, that she would not be happy because Adam would dominate her, not to her happiness.
Can I explain the mind of God? Not really,

Well, at least you are honest and not being delusional. Many people read scripture and quote it as if they are speaking for God! As I said pretending to speak for God is the height of human hubris.

but I understand some things. And that makes me happi-er than if I did not understand them.
1 Corinthians 11 - O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has first given to God,
that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

I'm sorry but I cannot accept the word "Lord" when describing God. You can't have a lord without slaves. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. This does not include a lesser god who has the need or desire to be worshiped by slaves. Obedience to authority is not the basis for a religion. It's government propaganda written to brain wash the people into accepting the legitimacy of monarchy. You would think our God of absolute perfection would be a little more egalitarian in choosing His divine form of government. I just find it amazingly coincidental the form of government chosen by God is exactly the same one King James was promoting.

Hmmm, just take a look at what the divine rights of kings means. And take a look at King James book, "True Law of Free Monarchy." Jesus could have been telling the people the path to salvation lies within each of us outside of the church. Jesus could have been teaching don't look to worship authority outside of yourself. But we will never know because all the texts the Bible was translated from to English have been scrubbed over the centuries until Christianity has become a religion for slaves promoting loyalty to monarchy.

Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

If you choose to bend your knee out of fear then less power to you:

Bending a knee to authority is not my natural state. Maybe it's yours. You can choose to have faith in a lesser God out of fear. Your religion's threats of eternal damnation do not scare me one bit. My faith is stronger than your fear! I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who loves me no matter what! Unconditional love means no conditions! My God loves me regardless of any of my Earthly sins or how I practiced, or not practiced, my religion or any other religion. Your God has limitations. Your God needs you to behave a certain way. Your God needs to be worshiped. My God is stronger than yours because my omnipotent God of unconditional love is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires.

 

[YoursTrue]

I've studied many of the World's religions.



I don't think Jewish people or Israelites where special enough for God to talk to them directly. I think it's all made up delusional stuff written by men who were inspired by the desire to have power over people though religious manipulation.



Here's my answer why we have so much much evil and misery in the World. The idea has to with Apophatic theology and how we define God. God is perfect, whole, and complete. Being perfect, whole, and complete, God does not have any needs or desires. Since our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World, since God has no evil, God is absolute goodness. Or in other words since God has no need or desire to judge anyone then God is All-loving.

God did not create the Universe out of some need or desire. God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance of energy. But our Universe is not perfect, whole, and complete like God. Our Universe is full of imperfections. Nature is full of imperfections. Our human bodies are full of imperfections. It is these imperfections in the Universe, nature, and in ourselves that is the source of all our suffering, evil, and misery.

The only way God could have prevented all the suffering in the World would have been by creating each of us with omnipotent powers. Only by having omnipotent powers would we be strong enough to overcome all our imperfections. The thing is if we have omnipotent powers then we would not be separate from God. We would be one with the mind of God. We would be God. God did not create us as clones of Himself.

We were all created to fulfill our part in God's plan. And that plan is we exist to realize God's omnipotence. We exist so God can share in our experiences of having limitations by God sharing in our experiences of love, joy, frustration, suffering, and death. Every choice we make is God realizing what would happen if. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe were over an unimaginable amount of time God gets to experience every possible choice we can make.

This way of thinking seems logical to me as long as you accept the assumptions I making. You can't prove an assumption. Assumptions are chosen to be true.

My way of thinking has a really interesting twist to the Adam and Eve creation story. The story is not about sin. The story is about making peace with the tree of knowledge. Once we discover our own imperfections, we are not really cast out from Eden. We just no longer experience it. Many times when people find out they were created with imperfections we turn to our creators and hate them. We hate our creators because they are responsible for all our weaknesses. And our weaknesses are the source of all our suffering. We love our parents for their strengths. But we hate our parents for their weaknesses. This is because our parent's strengths are our strengths. Our parent's weaknesses are our weaknesses. It's only when we accept who we are and love ourselves in spite of our own imperfections that we are able to have a good relationship with our parents.

The same is true for God. We love God for our strengths. We hate God for not creating us with omnipotent powers. We have to stop judging God. Until we make peace with the tree of knowledge, that is, make peace with our own imperfections in ourselves, the people around us, nature, the Universe we will not be capable of fully loving and appreciating all of God's blessings flowing all around us. Once we make peace with the tree of knowledge we are able to experience again some of the good parts of Eden we lost when we were expelled.



Well, at least you are honest and not being delusional. Many people read scripture and quote it as if they are speaking for God! As I said pretending to speak for God is the height of human hubris.



I'm sorry but I cannot accept the word "Lord" when describing God. You can't have a lord without slaves. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. This does not include a lesser god who has the need or desire to be worshiped by slaves. Obedience to authority is not the basis for a religion. It's government propaganda written to brain wash the people into accepting the legitimacy of monarchy. You would think our God of absolute perfection would be a little more egalitarian in choosing His divine form of government. I just find it amazingly coincidental the form of government chosen by God is exactly the same one King James was promoting.

Hmmm, just take a look at what the divine rights of kings means. And take a look at King James book, "True Law of Free Monarchy." Jesus could have been telling the people the path to salvation lies within each of us outside of the church. Jesus could have been teaching don't look to worship authority outside of yourself. But we will never know because all the texts the Bible was translated from to English have been scrubbed over the centuries until Christianity has become a religion for slaves promoting loyalty to monarchy.

Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

If you choose to bend your knee out of fear then less power to you:

Bending a knee to authority is not my natural state. Maybe it's yours. You can choose to have faith in a lesser God out of fear. Your religion's threats of eternal damnation do not scare me one bit. My faith is stronger than your fear! I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who loves me no matter what! Unconditional love means no conditions! My God loves me regardless of any of my Earthly sins or how I practiced, or not practiced, my religion or any other religion. Your God has limitations. Your God needs you to behave a certain way. Your God needs to be worshiped. My God is stronger than yours because my omnipotent God of unconditional love is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires.

Abraham was not a Jew, but God did have a close relationship with him. I would also like to know if you think of God as a person. Not a human person, but a person with thoughts and feelings. As far as behaving according to His will, yes, God has a will. And his laws are for our (mankind's) benefits. When we do not observe those laws, we will suffer because...they are laid down for our benefit.