An Open Challenge To Creationists

[YoursTrue]

.

If you're in a coma or your fingers are numb, it's doubtful if you're feeling a hammer on any fingers. Now I'm rolling my eyes... slightly smiling...

 

[ecco]

So I got what I wanted, namely you saying, that Creationism is wrong.

Wow! You must feel so proud. The problem with your self-aggrandizement is that I have been saying that on this forum since I joined in 2016. And a lot longer than that in the real world.

And here we hit the first problem:
Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do. So science can't say that Creationism is neither right nor wrong.

So what. Either Creationism, as in the bible, is wrong or your god went through a lot of trouble to intentionally make it look like Creationism, as in the bible, is wrong.

Likewise, neither science nor I nor you can rule out the concept of Last Thursdayism. Therefore, perhaps the rational thing to do is throw our collective hands in the air and just say "Boo Hoo, we'll never know anything". Alternatively, we could realize that all the thousands of creation stories are nothing more than just the creation of man's imaginings and continue to make progress in determining the actual Natural truth.

So now it is your turn. Prove and not just assume that the world is natural and you can prove that Creationism is wrong.

No. No. No. I refer you to the purpose of the thread. I refer you to my comments to you on several occasions. Just provide any evidence that Creationism is true. No proof needed, just a spittle of evidence.

The only reason you and other creationists always duck and dodge is because you can't.




Have you even stated which Creation story you believe in?

 

[ecco]

You probably know the Bible uses the word 'day' in various ways. It does not have to mean a 24-hour period. According to many, and I agree, the word day as used in the description of creating the heavens and the earth refers to a period of time with an opening and a closing. Each day could have been thousands of years, if not longer. And of course, many realize that a 'day' can start with the evening sundown in some respects. Notice, if you will, that the 7th 'day' of the creative days is not said to be over. The first six days are completed, not the 7th day.

More correctly, I know that people who try desperately to make the bible fit reality, have tried to define "day" in various ways.

 

[YoursTrue]

Wow! You must feel so proud. The problem with your self-aggrandizement is that I have been saying that on this forum since I joined in 2016. And a lot longer than that in the real world.



So what. Either Creationism, as in the bible, is wrong or your god went through a lot of trouble to intentionally make it look like Creationism, as in the bible, is wrong.

Likewise, neither science nor I nor you can rule out the concept of Last Thursdayism. Therefore, perhaps the rational thing to do is throw our collective hands in the air and just say "Boo Hoo, we'll never know anything". Alternatively, we could realize that all the thousands of creation stories are nothing more than just the creation of man's imaginings and continue to make progress in determining the actual Natural truth.


No. No. No. I refer you to the purpose of the thread. I refer you to my comments to you on several occasions. Just provide any evidence that Creationism is true. No proof needed, just a spittle of evidence.

The only reason you and other creationists always duck and dodge is because you can't.




Have you even stated which Creation story you believe in?

As far as boo hooing goes, right now the world is going through a bit of something that looks like a plague. And so we'll see what happens, but Jesus was put to death if you believe that, I know some people don't, but I do, and he said before he died that there come a time the world would be just as it is today. While there was WWI and WWII, really speaking, the human race has entered an era that is unprecedented. So we'll see what will happen.

 

[YoursTrue]

More correctly, I know that people who try desperately to make the bible fit reality, have tried to define "day" in various ways.

Hey, thinking about this, even Einstein thought time was bendable. (Relative, hmm?)

 

[YoursTrue]

More correctly, I know that people who try desperately to make the bible fit reality, have tried to define "day" in various ways.

Plus it doesn't matter, because fortunately for some, there's no way it can be twisted as for the 7th day of creation. It ain't over yet. It's not a long read, Genesis chapter 1 will give you the answer.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Wow! You must feel so proud. The problem with your self-aggrandizement is that I have been saying that on this forum since I joined in 2016. And a lot longer than that in the real world.

There is no real world. You can't measure real using science. There is no scientific measurement standard for real. You can't see real, hold it or otherwise have sensory experiences of it. Real is no different that God. It is apparently an idea in the brains of some people. You believe in the real world, yet there is no evidence that the world is real. You are a believer like me. You are just a believer in a natural world, where as I believe in God.

So what. Either Creationism, as in the bible, is wrong or your god went through a lot of trouble to intentionally make it look like Creationism, as in the bible, is wrong.

Well, I am not a Christian so for me that is not relevant, but that doesn't mean that is not so. If such a God exists and have done so, then that is how it is.

Likewise, neither science nor I nor you can rule out the concept of Last Thursdayism. Therefore, perhaps the rational thing to do is throw our collective hands in the air and just say "Boo Hoo, we'll never know anything". Alternatively, we could realize that all the thousands of creation stories are nothing more than just the creation of man's imaginings and continue to make progress in determining the actual Natural truth.

You see, Last Thursdayism is not a unique problem limited to religion. You have the same problem with the natural world. Now here is your natural variant of Last Trursdayism, it is called a Boltzmann Brain. Read up on it, if you have to. So here is a variant of a Boltzmann Brain universe. It consists of a computer and a power source. On the computer is you. You are running on the computer as a program on the computer. Now the rest of the world including me is a simulation run by the computer "against" you. There is no real world. There is you running on the computer and your experience of the simulation, but there are no other humans. They aren't real. There is no real world, it is a simulation.
And you can't know, because you have no way of knowing. That you believe in the real world, is nothing than a belief.

No. No. No. I refer you to the purpose of the thread. I refer you to my comments to you on several occasions. Just provide any evidence that Creationism is true. No proof needed, just a spittle of evidence.

Just provide any evidence or proof that the real world is true. You can't. There is a reason it is called methodological naturalism. It rests on the unprovable assumption that the world is fair and thus natural and knowable.

The only reason you and other creationists always duck and dodge is because you can't.

Yes, of course. I can't give proof nor evidence for what the world really is. I accept that. I am a philosophical skeptic. I have been doing this for 25+ years now and there is in the recorded history of mankind no evidence or proof of what the world really is. But that is not unique to religious people. You are not that special either. You apparently don't have access to a special kind of evidence or proof. I have found none. Neither in science, philosophy nor religion. And I doubt that you have that proof or evidence. Only God can have that and I doubt, that you are God.

Have you even stated which Creation story you believe in?

Yeah, now it gets weird. I believe in a natural God, which is fair and created this natural universe as knowable, How come it is a God? Well, because I have no evidence for it and it is about the world as such and that the world is fair. But the world is not fair. Fair is a human emotion and it is not out there in the world. So I believe in something without proof or evidence and I believe that the world is fair, thus I believe in a God. That God to me, is natural, yet still a God, because she is fair. No Last Thursdayism nor no Boltzmann Brain.
You see, I pay attention, when someone like you, as with science, which is knowledge, claims knowledge. And since I am a skeptic, I know how to check that. And with the unprovable assumption that the world is fair and thus natural and knowable, I know that religious people is not that special and that includes me. But I know that neither are you. In practice for how this world apparently works, nobody has that kind of knowledge as to what the world really is. And apparently that includes you.

Hi ecco. Skeptics like me are no fun, because we have learned to check all claims and not just some and that includes both God and the real world.
So you can believe, all you like in a real world, but it doesn't mean, that there is a real world. It means, that this is, how you believe.
So no, I don't win and neither do you. Apparently we are in it together and all I have done, is to show you that no humans apparently have special knowledge, you know really real special knowledge, and that includes both you and I.
So welcome to the really fun world of what knowledge really is. It is a belief, that you take for granted and which apparently works, but that is unknowable. Hence it is faith.

Regards and love
Mikkel
PS Don't worry. You have apparently no control over it. The world controls you and not the other way around. Just accept that and keep believing in a real world. I do and it appears to work.

 

[ecco]

As far as boo hooing goes, right now the world is going through a bit of something that looks like a plague. And so we'll see what happens, but Jesus was put to death if you believe that, I know some people don't, but I do, and he said before he died that there come a time the world would be just as it is today. While there was WWI and WWII, really speaking, the human race has entered an era that is unprecedented. So we'll see what will happen.

The long term impact from Climate Change (which many of your fellow devout Christians disparage) will negatively impact far more people than Covid19.


People have been predicting the EndOfTimes since long before the Christian Bible was written. People like Charles Russel have even started religions on the exact day and time of the End.

Yet, here we are.

 

[ecco]

Hey, thinking about this, even Einstein thought time was bendable. (Relative, hmm?)

That's somewhat typical of woosters, take a bit of science and twist it around to try to make it fit their silly notions. Ya know, like making a day mean eons and still coming up with creation 6000 years ago.

 

[ecco]

Plus it doesn't matter, because fortunately for some, there's no way it can be twisted as for the 7th day of creation. It ain't over yet. It's not a long read, Genesis chapter 1 will give you the answer.

It was the Genesis stories that convinced the 10-year-old me that the Bible was nothing more than fantasy stories like all my other comic books. Only the Bible stories were even less believable.

 

[ecco]

There is no real world. You can't measure real using science. There is no scientific measurement standard for real. You can't see real, hold it or otherwise have sensory experiences of it. Real is no different that God. It is apparently an idea in the brains of some people. You believe in the real world, yet there is no evidence that the world is real. You are a believer like me. You are just a believer in a natural world, where as I believe in God.




Well, I am not a Christian so for me that is not relevant, but that doesn't mean that is not so. If such a God exists and have done so, then that is how it is.




You see, Last Thursdayism is not a unique problem limited to religion. You have the same problem with the natural world. Now here is your natural variant of Last Trursdayism, it is called a Boltzmann Brain. Read up on it, if you have to. So here is a variant of a Boltzmann Brain universe. It consists of a computer and a power source. On the computer is you. You are running on the computer as a program on the computer. Now the rest of the world including me is a simulation run by the computer "against" you. There is no real world. There is you running on the computer and your experience of the simulation, but there are no other humans. They aren't real. There is no real world, it is a simulation.
And you can't know, because you have no way of knowing. That you believe in the real world, is nothing than a belief.




Just provide any evidence or proof that the real world is true. You can't. There is a reason it is called methodological naturalism. It rests on the unprovable assumption that the world is fair and thus natural and knowable.




Yes, of course. I can't give proof nor evidence for what the world really is. I accept that. I am a philosophical skeptic. I have been doing this for 25+ years now and there is in the recorded history of mankind no evidence or proof of what the world really is. But that is not unique to religious people. You are not that special either. You apparently don't have access to a special kind of evidence or proof. I have found none. Neither in science, philosophy nor religion. And I doubt that you have that proof or evidence. Only God can have that and I doubt, that you are God.




Yeah, now it gets weird. I believe in a natural God, which is fair and created this natural universe as knowable, How come it is a God? Well, because I have no evidence for it and it is about the world as such and that the world is fair. But the world is not fair. Fair is a human emotion and it is not out there in the world. So I believe in something without proof or evidence and I believe that the world is fair, thus I believe in a God. That God to me, is natural, yet still a God, because she is fair. No Last Thursdayism nor no Boltzmann Brain.
You see, I pay attention, when someone like you, as with science, which is knowledge, claims knowledge. And since I am a skeptic, I know how to check that. And with the unprovable assumption that the world is fair and thus natural and knowable, I know that religious people is not that special and that includes me. But I know that neither are you. In practice for how this world apparently works, nobody has that kind of knowledge as to what the world really is. And apparently that includes you.

Hi ecco. Skeptics like me are no fun, because we have learned to check all claims and not just some and that includes both God and the real world.
So you can believe, all you like in a real world, but it doesn't mean, that there is a real world. It means, that this is, how you believe.
So no, I don't win and neither do you. Apparently we are in it together and all I have done, is to show you that no humans apparently have special knowledge, you know really real special knowledge, and that includes both you and I.
So welcome to the really fun world of what knowledge really is. It is a belief, that you take for granted and which apparently works, but that is unknowable. Hence it is faith.

Regards and love
Mikkel
PS Don't worry. You have apparently no control over it. The world controls you and not the other way around. Just accept that and keep believing in a real world. I do and it appears to work.

You do have the ability to put a lot of words into a post.

The problem is that you are incapable of providing a single shred of evidence to support your undefined concept of Creationism.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It was the Genesis stories that convinced the 10-year-old me that the Bible was nothing more than fantasy stories like all my other comic books. Only the Bible stories were even less believable.

What you believe has nothing to do with what reality really is. That is the same as of all other beliefs of what reality really is. It is unknown.
Cognitive relativism consists of two claims:
(1) The truth-value of any statement is always relative to some particular standpoint;
(2) No standpoint is metaphysically privileged over all others.
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

We are in the end playing around with (2) and your belief in that, is not different than any other belief in that; it is a belief.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[ecco]

Yeah, now it gets weird. I believe in a natural God, which is fair and created this natural universe as knowable, How come it is a God? Well, because I have no evidence for it and it is about the world as such and that the world is fair. But the world is not fair.

A little confused, are ya?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You do have the ability to put a lot of words into a post.

The problem is that you are incapable of providing a single shred of evidence to support your undefined concept of Creationism.

You apparently really don't get the limit of evidence. You believe in evidence, like some believe in God. It is certain and not subjective in practice. Well, it is, when you look closer.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A little confused, are ya?

Could you start using reasoned arguments?

 

[ecco]

Skeptics like me are no fun, because we have learned to check all claims and not just some and that includes both God and the real world.

Now that is really funny. You consider yourself to be a skeptic. You state you believe in a god of some kind or other.

mikkel circa15,000 BCE: I don't know why that volcano is starting to huff and puff. But, because I'm a skeptic, I'll state that a goddidit.

If that kind of self-deceit works for you, OK.

 

[ecco]

Could you start using reasoned arguments?

After you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Now that is really funny. You consider yourself to be a skeptic. You state you believe in a god of some kind or other.

mikkel circa15,000 BCE: I don't know why that volcano is starting to huff and puff. But, because I'm a skeptic, I'll state that a goddidit.

If that kind of self-deceit works for you, OK.

You are still using feelings.
Explain this by a scientist:
"The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'Viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the universe are the same for all observers.' This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists."
William C. Keel (2007). The Road to Galaxy Formation (2nd ed.). Springer-Praxis.

Now explain how is it philosophy and not science? How come there is philosophy in science? How come the cosmological principle is not the cosmological law/theory of science, but philosophy?

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

After you.

Reason is a process in a given brain. You can test if reason has a limit just like human mobility is limited.
It has been done and rationalism doesn't work. The universe doesn't have to be logic and reasonable, just because you believe in that.

The same way with evidence. That is a human behavior and just like mobility in has a limit.

My God is nature. I am a naturalist, yet I know that is a belief. You just don't accept limits to science, reason and logic. In effect you believe as it seems that it is true, that the world is natural. It is not.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[ecco]

You are still using feelings.
Explain this by a scientist:
"The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'Viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the universe are the same for all observers.' This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists."
William C. Keel (2007). The Road to Galaxy Formation (2nd ed.). Springer-Praxis.

Now explain how is it philosophy and not science?

Why would you ask me to explain "how is it philosophy and not science"? You're the one who believes it's philosophy.







The beauty of philosophy is that anyone can spout off about anything. The sad part about philosophy is that so many people accept what others have spouted off.

Even more sad is that people use the spouting of philosophers to denigrate science. Your posts are evidence of that.

You prefer to believe in an undefined god doing undefined things.