An Religious Chat

[AmbiguousGuy]

My God's eyes are blue.

MIne wears a crooked grin.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I guess that would make me a prophet, eek! Please don't tell anyone because I do enjoy being considered a heretic .

Yeah. Either we're all prophets or else no one is a prophet.

(Got that directly from God. Just passing it on.)

 

[steeltoes]

My God speaks the truth.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

My God speaks the truth.

My God tells dirty jokes about other gods.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I guess that would make me a prophet....

Quite the contrary!

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"37
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”


-- The Book of Laws, p. 32

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Quite the contrary!

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"37
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”


-- The Book of Laws, p. 32

But you haven't given any reason why we should accept the Baha'i scriptures as actual scriptures.

In my view, the quote you offer is good evidence that the writer did not have a special connection to God.

 

[mystic64]

Yeah. Either we're all prophets or else no one is a prophet.

(Got that directly from God. Just passing it on.)

Ambiguous, you leave no room for argument !

 

[mystic64]

But you haven't given any reason why we should accept the Baha'i scriptures as actual scriptures.

In my view, the quote you offer is good evidence that the writer did not have a special connection to God.

Well said!

 

[mystic64]

Quite the contrary!

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"37
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”


-- The Book of Laws, p. 32

Judge me a thousand years from now son, and I do not didagree with the scripture that you have quoted.

 

[Yuusif12]

“Surely this Quran guides to the way that is straightest and gives good tidings to the believers who do deeds of righteousness, that theirs shall be a great wage.” (18:9)

“Soon will We show them our signs in the furthest horizons, and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this
is the Truth…” (41: 53)

“surely We created you out of dust, then of a sperm-drop, then of a leech-like clot, then out of a lump of flesh, formed and unformed, that We may make clearer (Our signs) to you; and We establish in the wombs what We will, till a stated term, then We deliver you as infants, then that you may come of age; and some of you die, and some of you are kept back unto the vilest state of life, that after knowing, they may know nothing…” (22: 5)

“Whomsoever Allah desires to guide, He expands his chest to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his chest narrow, tight, as if he were climbing up to the sky.” (6:125)

“And he turned away from them, and said, ‘Ah, how great is my grief for Joseph.’ And his eyes turned white because of the sorrow that he chocked within him.”
“Go, take this shirt, and do you cast it on my father’s face , and he shall recover his sight; then bring me your family altogether.”
“So, when the caravan set forth, their father ( Jacob ) said, ‘surely I perceive Yousof’s scent, unless you think me doting’. They said; ‘By Allah, you are certainly in your ancient error.’ But when the bearer of good tidings came to him, and laid it (Yousof's shirt) on his face, forthwith he saw once again. He said; ‘Did I not tell you I know from Allah that you know not?’ (12: 94-96)

“Forbidden to you are carrion, blood and flesh of swine, and that which has been hallowed to other than Allah, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; and that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal-excepting that you have sacrificed duly…” (4:3)

How did the prophet who couldn'y write or read know this?

 

[Windwalker]

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"37
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”


-- The Book of Laws, p. 32

If he is including himself in this statement then I very loosely agree, aside from all the being sent to hell by an angry God point of view. Anyone claiming to be dictating words spoken directly to them to others, like channeling the Almighty or something, is either a liar as in a religious conman, or is delusional as in a form of mental illness. God doesn't send people to hell, let alone those with psychiatric disorders.

However, what is 'revelation'? I will say that someone can in fact be attuned with Spirit, and speak from themselves reflecting that Spirit of God with various degrees of Clarity. But even that is still the individual, albeight with a clearer knowledge of God. In this sense God speaks to them, but not in formed dictates. Not in infallible commandments meddling in human societies from on high. Such understandings are juvenile, but serve a certain degree of functionality at a certain level. To get stuck in that understanding leaves someone always and ever externalizing the Reality of God to themselves, imagining they have oracles repeating God's word to them, rather than discovering that Word of God, in themselves, as themselves.

BTW, why is it when quoting the Bahia scriptures they are always put in super-large fonts? Are they intended to be shouted or screamed at people?

 

[BruceDLimber]

But you haven't given any reason why we should accept the Baha'i scriptures as actual scriptures.

Nor would !!

IOV EVERYONE has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and follow that. For this very reason I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else what to believe.

In my view, the quote you offer is good evidence that the writer did not have a special connection to God.

Your call, as I just said.

Though I will point out that in this case you appear to be completely ignoring the other hundred volumes He wrote (if indeed you've ever seen them at all), as well as another 100 volumes of our scripture.... Hardy a fair evaluation, IMHO. One short quote out of context does not an equitable evaluation make. . . .

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Nor would !!

IOV EVERYONE has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and follow that. For this very reason I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else what to believe.

But why do you quote Baha'i scripture to me? It has no particular authority for me, so why do you quote it at me? This is a debate forum. I think you should try and convince me that Baha'i scripture is somehow 'true' or special.

Your call, as I just said.

Though I will point out that in this case you appear to be completely ignoring the other hundred volumes He wrote (if indeed you've ever seen them at all), as well as another 100 volumes of our scripture.... Hardy a fair evaluation, IMHO. One short quote out of context does not an equitable evaluation make. . . .

Oh, I don't believe in scripture at all. So I wouldn't spend anymore time looking at the Baha'i scripture than at any other.

There is no man who has been closer to God than I am. So why would I accept the words of another man as holding more truth than my own?

 

[BruceDLimber]

If he is including himself in this statement then I very loosely agree, aside from all the being sent to hell by an angry God point of view.... God doesn't send people to hell, let alone those with psychiatric disorders.

However, what is 'revelation'?

We stipulate that no one's "sent to hell" by an angry God. If anything, individuals sometimes send themselves into that condition, which is defined as spiritual separation from God.

But our scripture state that even this condition is temporary and that God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, assists everyone--regardless of circumstance--eventually to draw spiritually near to Him (the definiton of Heaven). (Quote upon request.)

As to revelation, IOV the Divine Messengers sent by God to instruct us are each given teachings to comunicate to us, which in recent times has been done largely in writing....

And as to the font size, I simply prefer that things be easily legible. In my case no other reason applies.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

But why do you quote Baha'i scripture to me?

For the simple reason that I find it the best way of expressing certain relevant ideas. YMMV, as ever....

There is no man who has been closer to God than I am.

Very glad to hear it.

So why would I accept the words of another man as holding more truth than my own?

First off, we don't see any Divine Messenger as merely a "man."

But the overall reason such things should be considered is that very simply, most (if not all) of us aren't so well-informed that we can't learn anything more, especially when potentially valuable material is presented sincerely and with no compulsion.

_I_ don't claim to know it all; and I trust you dont, either.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Very glad to hear it.

Yeah, it's how I feel about Baha'u'llah. Very glad to hear that he thought himself a Manifestation.

First off, we don't see any Divine Messenger as merely a "man."

OK, let me rephrase: No being who has taken the shape of an earthly human... has ever known more about God than I know.

But the overall reason such things should be considered is that very simply, most (if not all) of us aren't so well-informed that we can't learn anything more, especially when potentially valuable material is presented sincerely and with no compulsion.

_I_ don't claim to know it all; and I trust you dont, either.

Peace,

Bruce

I read and study the words of other people all the time. I just don't view any of them as more authoritative than my own. Not in the matter of God.

 

[mystic64]

“Surely this Quran guides to the way that is straightest and gives good tidings to the believers who do deeds of righteousness, that theirs shall be a great wage.” (18:9)

“Soon will We show them our signs in the furthest horizons, and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this
is the Truth…” (41: 53)

“surely We created you out of dust, then of a sperm-drop, then of a leech-like clot, then out of a lump of flesh, formed and unformed, that We may make clearer (Our signs) to you; and We establish in the wombs what We will, till a stated term, then We deliver you as infants, then that you may come of age; and some of you die, and some of you are kept back unto the vilest state of life, that after knowing, they may know nothing…” (22: 5)

“Whomsoever Allah desires to guide, He expands his chest to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his chest narrow, tight, as if he were climbing up to the sky.” (6:125)

“And he turned away from them, and said, ‘Ah, how great is my grief for Joseph.’ And his eyes turned white because of the sorrow that he chocked within him.”
“Go, take this shirt, and do you cast it on my father’s face , and he shall recover his sight; then bring me your family altogether.”
“So, when the caravan set forth, their father ( Jacob ) said, ‘surely I perceive Yousof’s scent, unless you think me doting’. They said; ‘By Allah, you are certainly in your ancient error.’ But when the bearer of good tidings came to him, and laid it (Yousof's shirt) on his face, forthwith he saw once again. He said; ‘Did I not tell you I know from Allah that you know not?’ (12: 94-96)

“Forbidden to you are carrion, blood and flesh of swine, and that which has been hallowed to other than Allah, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; and that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal-excepting that you have sacrificed duly…” (4:3)

How did the prophet who couldn'y write or read know this?

Wisdom is not dependent on one's ability to read and write. But, sharing that wisdom with large numbers of people in the future is dependent on someone being able to read and write.

 

[mystic64]

Yeah, it's how I feel about Baha'u'llah. Very glad to hear that he thought himself a Manifestation.



OK, let me rephrase: No being who has taken the shape of an earthly human... has ever known more about God than I know.



I read and study the words of other people all the time. I just don't view any of them as more authoritative than my own. Not in the matter of God.

One could conclude that you are not evangelistically inclined. And one could also conclude that that would be wisdom. And, one could also wonder why Bruce considers the Baha'i faith superior to Islam?

 

[mystic64]

But why do you quote Baha'i scripture to me?]/quote]

For the simple reason that I find it the best way of expressing certain relevant ideas. YMMV, as ever....



Very glad to hear it.



First off, we don't see any Divine Messenger as merely a "man."

But the overall reason such things should be considered is that very simply, most (if not all) of us aren't so well-informed that we can't learn anything more, especially when potentially valuable material is presented sincerely and with no compulsion.

_I_ don't claim to know it all; and I trust you dont, either.

Peace,

Bruce

Bruce, why do you consider the Baha'i faith superior to the Islamic faith?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

One could conclude that you are not evangelistically inclined.

Nah. If I have to talk people into loving me, it isn't true love.

And, one could also wonder why Bruce considers the Baha'i faith superior to Islam?

It is my experience that Baha'is believe in prophecy, in the sense of a man being able to foretell the future perfectly, with God's help.

Then they conclude that Baha'u'llah was foretold in the Islamic scriptures.

At least that's my impression.