..and not a drag queen among them.

[SkepticThinker]

I thought quite a bit about your comments yesterday afternoon while doing chores. First, to address the above. I do agree, for the most part. It's a Catch-22 for anyone doubting the magnificence of Transgender Ideology and/or the Affirmative Care Model. (So, stunning and brave.) The science, such as it is, IS on "your" side of this. This is a bit of a problem for people like me who have a visceral reaction to this type of thinking.

I think you're free to go out and carry out your own studies and prove everyone wrong. But just stating that you don't like it or that you have a visceral reaction to it isn't an actual argument against it's usefulness and efficacy.

What does get to me is the reality that if I were going through the school system right now, I would be a prime target of this warped ideology. I would be a siting duck and would be completely unprepared for these ill-conceived, vague notions such as gender fluidity, gender queer, gender questioning, non-binary et al. It would be especially difficult to deal with because these ideas would be presented to me as de facto reality. They would tell me that “this is the science”.

I question whether that is actually what is going on in schools. This sounds like the Fox News version of it.

What disturbs me is that accepting one is gay is no small feat. Having all this extra baggage added into the mix is simply not helpful. For example, it isn’t a huge leap for a boy who is unsure of himself and does not want to admit he is gay may very well allow himself to believe that he might be a female – as at least they wouldn’t be gay. Add the distinct pressure to conform to this ideology (and the retribution for non-compliance). This IS a problem.

It's not a huge leap for a kid who doesn't want to admit he's gay to believe he might be a female? Sounds like a huge leap to me. As though being trans is so much better these days in terms of how one is treated?

Honestly, I have to say this all sounds like the arguments we used to hear against teaching kids anything at all about homosexuality. I honestly believe the underlying belief in such an argument is that people can become gay, or that gay is contagious or something. And now we're hearing the same thing about trans. Same argument, different decade.

No doubt, this is all just hyper-ventilating and of little consequence to those of you who are so steeped in this wonderful “progressive” way of looking at the world and the human condition.

We can pretend we're qualified medical professionals, but we aren't. I'm of the opinion that we should leave these things up to the people who know what they're talking about. I mean, do we really have better insight than they do on this? How many studies have you carried out and published?

For example, do we just ignore the horror story of Chloe Cole? Chalk her story up to a learning curve of medical science?

Sure, in the same way you ignore all the people who are very happy with their transition.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's higher than other populations relative to that, so you are going to find more lunatic thinking among this demographic. 26% is millions of people. They believe this nonsense.

You're trying to claim that it's "overwhelming" and "mainstream" and I don't see it.

 

[Rival]

Lu

You're trying to claim that it's "overwhelming" and "mainstream" and I don't see it.

Look, if you don't believe me just go on YT and TT and search it yourself.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Look, if you don't believe me just go on YT and TT and search it yourself.

Will it suddenly become an overwhelmingly mainstream opinion if I do that?

I can find videos of people claiming a flat earth all over YouTube as well. That doesn't make it a popular mainstream belief.

 

[Rival]

Will it suddenly become an overwhelmingly mainstream opinion if I do that?

I can find videos of people claiming a flat earth all over YouTube as well. That doesn't make it a popular mainstream belief.

Whatever man, some people think transwomen menstruate and they are shouting really loud at those who know they don't. It may be they seem like a majority because they are shouting really loud, but what I'm seeing here is 'These are fringe opinions that don't matter', but they're not. They're in schools. There's a recording of a teacher in my country threatening to discipline two girls who refuse to comply with their fellow pupil's identity as a cat. The teacher sided with the 'girl who is a cat'. If that's not mainstreaming idk what is. That video is available on Youtube.

 

[YmirGF]

Look, if you don't believe me just go on YT and TT and search it yourself.

The overall message I am getting from all of these discussions is if one does not agree with "the science" (for whatever reason), then suck it up sunshine and STFU. Disregard your lying eyes, @Rival Compliance is simply not an option.

Exit question: Given how passionate folks on the "pro" side of this discussion are I cannot help but wonder how long they will remain calm and keep trying to explain all this stunning and brave thinking to us mere mortals? I foresee a day when non-compliance will be met with a rather severe response. (Proportional, of course.) They want to send an eminent Clinical Psychologist to a "reducation camp" for his thinking errors. How long before this is standard practice for the rest of the resistent population?

 

[YmirGF]

WHEW. Good thing nothing like this is actually happening in schools eh?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

The overall message I am getting from all of these discussions is if one does not agree with "the science" (for whatever reason), then suck it up sunshine and STFU.

I wouldn't be so harsh about it as to say that, I wouldn't tell people to shut up.... but I pretty much agree with the overall message in what I quoted because the transgender movement has been going on for years. No one even took notice to it much, or complained that much, until Republicans brought it to greater attention as part of a wedge issue in the past year. So the moment to complain about it, seems to have mostly already passed. People have transitioned, people have made their choices, etc. It would be like me waiting 4-5 years to watch the Mario movie, then voicing complaints about it online after watching it, how they should change certain things in the movie, etc. In both cases - to me, that ship has already sailed.

 

[Rival]

I wouldn't be so harsh about it as to say that, I wouldn't tell people to shut up.... but I pretty much agree with the overall message in what I quoted because the transgender movement has been going on for years. No one even took notice to it much, or complained that much, until Republicans brought it to greater attention as part of a wedge issue in the past year. So the moment to complain about it, seems to have mostly already passed. People have transitioned, people have made their choices, etc. It would be like me waiting 4-5 years to watch the Mario movie, then voicing complaints about it online after watching it, how they should change certain things in the movie, etc. In both cases - to me, that ship has already sailed.

We're not complaining about transsexuals, we're complaining about people who believe things that are biologically impossible, and then the distortion of words to conform to their understanding of what was perfectly well understood as something else agreed on before, such as that only women have babies.

 

[YmirGF]

I wouldn't be so harsh about it as to say that, I wouldn't tell people to shut up.... but I pretty much agree with the overall message in what I quoted because the transgender movement has been going on for years. No one even took notice to it much, or complained that much, until Republicans brought it to greater attention as part of a wedge issue in the past year. So the moment to complain about it, seems to have mostly already passed. People have transitioned, people have made their choices, etc. It would be like me waiting 4-5 years to watch the Mario movie, then voicing complaints about it online after watching it, how they should change certain things in the movie, etc. In both cases - to me, that ship has already sailed.

Believe it or not, Snow, I agree. To be perfectly honest, I don't think the average person took Trans issues very seriously until recently.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

We're not complaining about transsexuals, we're complaining about people who believe things that are biologically impossible, and then the distortion of words to conform to their understanding of what was perfectly well understood as something else agreed on before, such as that only women have babies.

Right. But I'm not discussing that currently, because I believe something similar to a Straw Man is going on where you guys are observing locker room talk on left-wing platforms, or out of context stuff in general

For the record, I do believe that some people try to identify as cats. I've even talked to one such person. But by talking about it in isolation, we ignore the context. For example, the person I talked to who identified as a cat, didn't even seem motivated by a larger movement, but was autistic and had some backstory, and wasn't well "understood", and she found comfort in those thoughts.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

We're not complaining about transsexuals, we're complaining about people who believe things that are biologically impossible, and then the distortion of words to conform to their understanding of what was perfectly well understood as something else agreed on before, such as that only women have babies.

Transmen, nonbinary people and intersex men have also had babies. If there's a complaint about that then there's a complaint about the fundamental identity of trans, nonbinary and intersex people that womanhood is not purely biological.

 

[YmirGF]

For the record, I do believe that some people try to identify as cats. I've even talked to one such person. But by talking about it in isolation, we ignore the context. For example, the person I talked to who identified as a cat, didn't even seem motivated by a larger movement, but was autistic and had some backstory, and wasn't well "understood", and she found comfort in those thoughts.

But Snow, that is the very essence of delusional thinking. Delusions are, by their very nature, comforting. (Trust me on this one. I know, first hand.) That doesn't mean we should encourage such thinking and behaviors. I'd be more inclined to draw the person out of that thinking and try to feel safer in outer circle activities. Granted, one would have to make a bridge from the Kitty thinking to more adult thinking and the process would likely take some time.

 

[Rival]

Right. But I'm not discussing that currently, because I believe something similar to a Straw Man is going on where you guys are observing locker room talk on left-wing platforms, or out of context stuff in general

For the record, I do believe that some people try to identify as cats. I've even talked to one such person. But by talking about it in isolation, we ignore the context. For example, the person I talked to who identified as a cat, didn't even seem motivated by a larger movement, but was autistic and had some backstory, and wasn't well "understood", and she found comfort in those thoughts.

I understand what you're saying, but the fact that this is being pushed in schools de facto makes it mainstream. If the child is autistic he needs an intervention to help him think more rationally and accept he is a human being, otherwise he is going to face serious difficulties. The underlying problems leading to his identifying as a cat need addressing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The overall message I am getting from all of these discussions is if one does not agree with "the science" (for whatever reason), then suck it up sunshine and STFU. Disregard your lying eyes, @Rival Compliance is simply not an option.

My suggestion was, get out there, do some studies, and show the science/medical interventions/etc. are wrong. Just expressing your disdain toward it and assuming you know more than the people who study it for a living doesn't cut it.

Exit question: Given how passionate folks on the "pro" side of this discussion are I cannot help but wonder how long they will remain calm and keep trying to explain all this stunning and brave thinking to us mere mortals?

It's difficult to converse with a person who holds such an attitude as yours because I don't see a willingness at all to learn or expand upon your current knowledge base.

I foresee a day when non-compliance will be met with a rather severe response. (Proportional, of course.) They want to send an eminent Clinical Psychologist to a "reducation camp" for his thinking errors. How long before this is standard practice for the rest of the resistent population?

Alarmist nonsense.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I understand what you're saying, but the fact that this is being pushed in schools de facto makes it mainstream. If the child is autistic he needs an intervention to help him think more rationally and accept he is a human being, otherwise he is going to face serious difficulties. The underlying problems leading to his identifying as a cat need addressing.

Just like not everything with sexual in the term is equitably ethical or even related phenomena, not everything with identity is either. Comparing identity disorders like trans racial or trams species to transgender is a lot like comparing homosexuality to pedosexuality or pedophilia. The two aren't related.

 

[Rival]

Just like not everything with sexual in the term is equitably ethical or even related phenomena, not everything with identity is either. Comparing identity disorders like trans racial or trams species to transgender is a lot like comparing homosexuality to pedosexuality or pedophilia. The two aren't related.

It's the trans community itself that is putting these things under that umbrella. I'm only commenting on what they're doing.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's the trans community itself that is putting these things under that umbrella. I'm only commenting on what they're doing.

And I've seen the straight male community try to lump pedastry into healthy male sexuality. (Spec Nambla and some wilder Libertarians).

But most of all I see trans species brought up by conservative reactionaris, not the trans community itself.

 

[Orbit]

Here's what concerns me: The Proud Boys seditious conspiracy trial is underway. But the new leadership has moved on from the 2020 election to LGBTQ issues.

 

[Rival]

And I've seen the straight male community try to lump pedastry into healthy male sexuality. (Spec Nambla and some wilder Libertarians).

But most of all I see trans species brought up by conservative reactionaris, not the trans community itself.

If a teacher in my country is putting it under the banner of trans and identity, then as far as I am honestly concerned it's been accepted as part of the group. I'm going to assume she was trained in this.