..and not a drag queen among them.

[Rival]

Then where do they think menstrual blood comes from?

I honestly don't know. But it's definitely a thing they believe. You can just search this on tiktok or YouTube. It's prevalent and frankly I think not very nice to women who actually experience these things.

 

[YmirGF]

If anyone could supply peer-reviewed evidence from multiple reputable medical organizations demonstrating that the current model of care for gender dysphoria is ineffective or harmful, I would see a reason to object to it too. So far, I have only seen objections based on personal opinion and ideological or religious beliefs, not medical consensus or significant peer-reviewed evidence. I can't, in good conscience, reject something when current evidence indicates that rejection and banning thereof contributes to immense suffering and even loss of life among a certain group of people.

That's all there is to it for me. I don't listen to activists, whether ones for or against gender-affirming care, and I can't name a single activist or ideological book concerned with the issue, whether for or against. My position is merely based on current medical evidence, and unless or until reliable, peer-reviewed evidence from reputable sources contradicts current findings and established positions, I see no solid basis to change my position.

Again, thank you for a great response. I respect your reasoning. I, for one, am not convinced there is a correlation between no care and suicidality, for example. The sad reality is the suicidality numbers do not go down after one goes through Affirmative Care. Call me silly, but I would expect the numbers to go down significantly if the care given was effective. Granted, social issues may well have an impact on suicidality, but to ignore that the model isn't producing great outcomes is unwise.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

It's ridiculous because they are using a term with a defined meaning that they can't experience. PMS happens due to hormone fluctuations and a boatload of other factors that the same dose of œstrogen every time won't produce, because that's not a cycle it's a constant. What they're noticing is œstrogen in general makes one more susceptible to moodiness, teariness and other anxious emotions. I don't doubt that occurs, but to call it PMS is wrong and depreciates what PMS truly is.

You might be right.

All I can say, though, was that when I was on estrogen, things didn't seem constant. There was no constant or consistent "moodiness, teariness and other anxious emotions". It's complicated because they're trying to describe an effect, that I have also seen, where probably about a few days a month, they are particularly emotional. And it seems to happen with estrogen.

 

[Rival]

You might be right.

All I can say, though, was that when I was on estrogen, things didn't seem constant. There was no constant or consistent "moodiness, teariness and other anxious emotions". It's complicated because they're trying to describe an effect, that I have also seen, where probably about a few days a month, they are particularly emotional. And it seems to happen with estrogen.

It won't be constant because of other factors such as dopamine levels, diet, serotonin, testosterone levels etc. But they will not experience the hormonal fluctuations due to not ovulating etc.

 

[Father Heathen]

I honestly don't know. But it's definitely a thing they believe.

Who's "they"? I doubt those making such claims speak for the trans community at large.

You can just search this on tiktok

Yuck. No.

or YouTube. It's prevalent and frankly I think not very nice to women who actually experience these things.

I doubt it's actually prevalent considering it doesn't actually happen.

 

[Rival]

Whose "they"? I doubt those making such claims speak for the trans community at large.

Yuck. No.

I doubt it's actually prevalent considering it doesn't actually happen.

I don't think these people live in our reality lol. It's out there.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Who's "they"? I doubt those making such claims speak for the trans community at large.

I doubt it's super widespread either, but I can actually vouch that some trans women do describe this phenomena as "PMS".

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

@Father Heathen :

"Some trans people presumed male at birth (PMAB) report that, upon starting feminising hormones, they experience a regular and varying hormonal cycle. Little research has been done on this phenomenon, but it can still exist and affect people’s lives."

Source:

Menstruation — TransHub

www.transhub.org.au

 

[Father Heathen]

I doubt it's super widespread either, but I can actually vouch that some trans women do describe this phenomena as "PMS".

An effect on their emotional states due to the hormones, sure. Actual menstruation? No.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

An effect on their emotional states due to the hormones, sure. Actual menstruation? No.

Menstruation doesn't happen, correct.

 

[Orbit]

Just leaving this here: pre-colonial non-western cultures have made cultural space for transgender people before westerners ever got interested in it. See the Native American "berdache"; the hejira of India, and the kattoi of Thailand.

 

[Callisto]

Just leaving this here: pre-colonial non-western cultures have made cultural space for transgender people before westerners ever got interested in it. See the Native American "berdache"; the hejira of India, and the kattoi of Thailand.

I think the spelling for the South Asian word is hijra while "hejira" tends to be an alt spelling for Mohammad's journey to Medina (hijra, hijrah, hejira, hegira). Not being a spelling cop, only pointing that out in case someone wanted to research.

I don't think it's that this culture and society don't want to make room for trans people, after all, they've been around for quite a long while now living their lives for decades, they're nothing new. What is new is the current politics, ideologies, radical activism, and drama that do more to create problems than to lessen them. All cultures differ in innumerable ways and it's neither feasible nor realistic to expect they will all view and address matters in the same way - nor should any be expected to. It makes no more sense than for Western society to tell those other societies to change their views on the matter.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Incase you're wondering, there are a large cohort of people (largely unhinged tiktokers) who believe that women don't have a monopoly on periods, and that transwomen can get periods and PMS. This is becoming somewhat mainstream.

Perhaps you mean transmen?

I wouldn't exactly call anything that goes on on TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, etc. "mainstream"

 

[SkepticThinker]

You do not seem to understand me, @Debater Slayer

Thank you for making the effort though. It's not that I am against one or two things in the transgender discussion. I flat out reject the entire "Affirmative Care Model" and think it needs to be abolished -- the sooner, the better. I personally think it is akin to "junk science", but that is just me, obviously.

Then I'd say it's a good thing medical professionals don't derive their medical information from random posters' opinions on the internet.

 

[Rival]

Perhaps you mean transmen?

I wouldn't exactly call anything that goes on on TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, etc. "mainstream"

No.

I'm surprised more people aren't familiar with these folks. There are many of them who are accusing women of ""gatekeeping"" womanhood by being women. They believe women don't have a monopoly on menstruation and other things that require a female body. It's weird how progressives are unacquainted with their more insane brethren, but they do exist. For younger people tiktok is their mainstream. If you're younger than 25 it's probably your main source of information.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No.

I'm surprised more people aren't familiar with these folks. There are many of them who are accusing women of ""gatekeeping"" womanhood by being women. They believe women don't have a monopoly on menstruation and other things that require a female body. It's weird how progressives are unacquainted with their more insane brethren, but they do exist. For younger people tiktok is their mainstream. If you're younger than 25 it's probably your main source of information.

Perhaps because they are not actually mainstream.

"Adults under 30 are the most likely group to say they regularly get news on TikTok. About a quarter of Americans in this age group (26%) say they regularly get news there, higher than in 2021 and 2020. This compares with 10% of those ages 30 to 49, 4% of those 50 to 64 and just 1% of those 65 and older."

More Americans are getting news on TikTok, bucking the trend seen on most other social media sites

In just three years, the share of U.S. adults who say they regularly get news from TikTok has more than quadrupled, from 3% in 2020 to 14% in 2023.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Rival]

Perhaps because they are not actually mainstream.

"Adults under 30 are the most likely group to say they regularly get news on TikTok. About a quarter of Americans in this age group (26%) say they regularly get news there, higher than in 2021 and 2020. This compares with 10% of those ages 30 to 49, 4% of those 50 to 64 and just 1% of those 65 and older."

More Americans are getting news on TikTok, bucking the trend seen on most other social media sites

In just three years, the share of U.S. adults who say they regularly get news from TikTok has more than quadrupled, from 3% in 2020 to 14% in 2023.

www.pewresearch.org

If it's your main info source it doesn't really matter if it's mainstream. Younger people overwhelmingly use these platforms.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If it's your main info source it doesn't really matter if it's mainstream. Younger people overwhelmingly use these platforms.

26% Of them do. Not sure if I'd call that "overwhelming."

 

[YmirGF]

Then I'd say it's a good thing medical professionals don't derive their medical information from random posters' opinions on the internet.

I thought quite a bit about your comments yesterday afternoon while doing chores. First, to address the above. I do agree, for the most part. It's a Catch-22 for anyone doubting the magnificence of Transgender Ideology and/or the Affirmative Care Model. (So, stunning and brave.) The science, such as it is, IS on "your" side of this. This is a bit of a problem for people like me who have a visceral reaction to this type of thinking.

What does get to me is the reality that if I were going through the school system right now, I would be a prime target of this warped ideology. I would be a siting duck and would be completely unprepared for these ill-conceived, vague notions such as gender fluidity, gender queer, gender questioning, non-binary et al. It would be especially difficult to deal with because these ideas would be presented to me as de facto reality. They would tell me that “this is the science”.

What disturbs me is that accepting one is gay is no small feat. Having all this extra baggage added into the mix is simply not helpful. For example, it isn’t a huge leap for a boy who is unsure of himself and does not want to admit he is gay may very well allow himself to believe that he might be a female – as at least they wouldn’t be gay. Add the distinct pressure to conform to this ideology (and the retribution for non-compliance). This IS a problem.

No doubt, this is all just hyper-ventilating and of little consequence to those of you who are so steeped in this wonderful “progressive” way of looking at the world and the human condition.

For example, do we just ignore the horror story of Chloe Cole? Chalk her story up to a learning curve of medical science?

 

[Rival]

26% Of them do. Not sure if I'd call that "overwhelming."

It's higher than other populations relative to that, so you are going to find more lunatic thinking among this demographic. 26% is millions of people. They believe this nonsense.