...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

[KWED]

Hatred against a person is.

So anyone who hates the person who murdered their child is therefore as guilty and deserving of punishment as the murderer.

 

[ppp]

It's just doing what it was supposed to. But if you had been addicted to heroin I would suggest that hating heroin is a good thing.

Why? Like the snake, the heroin is just doing what's it's supposed to do.

 

[Muffled]

But y'all keep saying that if your god protects a kid from assault that your god is abrogating the free will of the assaulter.

I believe that is not true. God does intervene at times. I believe what is more likely is that God is not interested in turning people into automatons. His will is for people to choose to do the right thing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Hating inanimate objects is a pointless exercise.
And again, such hate would not lead to murder.

Now you are getting it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why? Like the snake, the heroin is just doing what's it's supposed to do.

Why should it even exist, then?

 

[ppp]

I believe that is not true. God does intervene at times. I believe what is more likely is that God is not interested in turning people into automatons. His will is for people to choose to do the right thing.

This goes back to the subject of the OP. How is stopping someone from hurting another person turning them into an automaton? If you are about to slap a baby, and I grab your hand to stop you, are you suddenly an automaton? No. The whole stopping = automaton thing makes no sense.

 

[ppp]

Why should it even exist, then?

I don't how you got from "Why? Like the snake, the heroin is just doing what's it's supposed to do." to "Why should it even exist, then?" There is no obvious connection between the two.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So anyone who hates the person who murdered their child is therefore as guilty and deserving of punishment as the murderer.

I think you are missing the point Jesus was making.


“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And John, who echoes what Jesus said:

13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."


So yes, forgiving others thier sin is important.
But the key point here is to act from love, not hate.
It's not about how men see justice, but about what God says we should do and be.

Matthew 5:23-26

23 Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift at the altar and go. First make things right with your brother or sister and then come back and offer your gift. 25 Be sure to make friends quickly with your opponents while you are with them on the way to court. Otherwise, they will haul you before the judge, the judge will turn you over to the officer of the court, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I say to you in all seriousness that you won’t get out of there until you’ve paid the very last penny.

 

[Muffled]

To be clear, someone imprisoned has not lost any free will?

I believe one could say the person has lost the free exercise of his will. The will of a prisoner may be to get out of prison but the capability is not there to make it happen.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I don't how you got from "Why? Like the snake, the heroin is just doing what's it's supposed to do." to "Why should it even exist, then?" There is no obvious connection between the two.

I would think anyone who recovered from drug addiction would hate the drug and wish it could be wiped from the earth.

 

[ppp]

I would think anyone who recovered from drug addiction would hate the drug and wish it could be wiped from the earth.

Hating and wanting something gone are not the same thing. Hating is a waste of energy and bad for one's nervous system. I am repulsed by things, and some of them I work against, but I don't invest my energy in hate.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is your proof that there is just one God?

Nobody can ever prove that, because God does not want us to be able to prove it.
God wants us to look at the evidence and have faith. If there was proof then we would not need faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree, in the sense that it does seem unreasonable to complain every time we prick our fingers. But then, I don't think people take it that far. There are things that go on in the world that are so horrific that we don't have to search for trivia.

That's true, there are horrific things that go on in the world, but how are those God's fault? Almost all of them can be traced back to human free will choices. Granted, there are other horrible things like accidents, injuries, and diseases that are not a choice, and these can be considered our fate. They are not things that God does to us but rather things that happen to us as a result of living in a material world.

Right now I'm OK. I'm retired and am finally free of having to work for a living. Nothing really bad has happened to me, though I have had long periods when I haven't felt happy, mostly as a result of my own bad decisions. If I got to have another shot at life knowing what I know now, I'd take it, but I wouldn't want to relive the whole thing as it actually happened. I plan to live for a while, so get your responses ready!

You are very fortunate if you have your health at your age. I have learned that is nothing to take for-granted.

I have also gone through long periods of time when I was unhappy but I don't attribute that to bad decisions, it was because of situations I had no control over.

You missed the point though. You said that God couldn't be totally evil because a totally evil being would destroy us all. I disagreed as a sadistic god would want us to suffer longer.

That's true, a sadistic God would want us to suffer longer, but how much sense does that make that God is sadistic. Moreover, such a belief runs contrary to scriptures of all the religions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God wants us to look at the evidence and have faith. If there was proof then we would not need faith.

There is no evidence, not even a shred of it.

 

[Alien826]

It only "makes sense" once we already exist (although I don't think it does even then).
My issue is why did god create anything in the first place? All the arguments about testing, growing, working towards paradise, etc necessarily assume that we already exist.

I have yet to see an apologist present any kind of cogent argument.

The only argument that makes any sense to me is the one where God has a purpose that is so lofty that all this is worth while. It works logically, meaning it's valid, but there is no way to test it or even investigate it, which is of course the purpose of the argument. I've never seen any explanation of what this purpose might be, and I have asked! The response of course is that we couldn't understand it even if we knew it, which simply shuts down the whole discussion.

 

[Alien826]

Yes. Notice I said " something" not " someone."

Yes. Good point.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Granted, there are other horrible things like accidents, injuries, and diseases that are not a choice, and these can be considered our fate. They are not things that God does to us but rather things that happen to us as a result of living in a material world.

..but I don't attribute that to bad decisions, it was because of situations I had no control over.

.. but how much sense does that make that God is sadistic. Moreover, such a belief runs contrary to scriptures of all the religions.

And who writes the fate?
How can things happen without God wanting it?
Your decisions were not bad, then who made bad things happen to you? Who was in control of those things?
Continuation of suffering, if anything, proves that God is sadistic - and the scriptures are false and biased towards God.
God should abandon this testing system. It is causing unnecessary sorrow to people., when he already knows all.

 

[Trailblazer]

And who writes the fate?
How can things happen without God wanting it?
Your decisions were not bad, then who made bad things happen to you? Who was in control of those things?
Continuation of suffering, if anything, proves that God is sadistic - and the scriptures are false and biased towards God.

Nobody made those things happen, they were just my fate.
God writes fate, both good and bad. I just happened to get a lot of bad for a very long time but I got some good too and I am hoping for better days on the horizon.

Yes, the scriptures are biased in favor of God, I will give you that.
However, in scriptures, God is not only depicted as loving. You will also find things in scriptures wherein God also has wrath.

 

[Trailblazer]

The only argument that makes any sense to me is the one where God has a purpose that is so lofty that all this is worth while. It works logically, meaning it's valid, but there is no way to test it or even investigate it, which is of course the purpose of the argument. I've never seen any explanation of what this purpose might be, and I have asked! The response of course is that we couldn't understand it even if we knew it, which simply shuts down the whole discussion.

God does have a Purpose for humanity that is very lofty so it is all worthwhile. Why would God create humans and have no Purpose for them? That makes no logical sense.

The only way we can investigate it is by reading scriptures, since that is the only Source of information about God's Purpose. God has a Purpose for us as individuals but God also has a collective Purpose for humanity.

My response is not going to be that we couldn't understand it even if we knew it, because it is something that we can understand. If you want to know what that Purpose is I can tell you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nobody made those things happen, they were just my fate.
God writes fate, both good and bad. I just happened to get a lot of bad for a very long time but I got some good too and I am hoping for better days on the horizon.

Yes, the scriptures are biased in favor of God, I will give you that.
However, in scriptures, God is not only depicted as loving. You will also find things in scriptures wherein God also has wrath.

I too hope so. But it was unfair for God to have made such things happen.
That is what I said - the scriptures are false.
And God SHOULD NOT HAVE wrath towards the creatures he has created in his own way. What is their fault?