And you're proud to be christian?

[Todd]

How, exactly, would the family "celebrate the sin"? It's my understanding that even in the most narrow-minded churches, it's not a sin for two men to love each other or live together. It's only the sex they object to, supposedly. Did the family want to put up posters showing the deceased having sex with his partner? Did they want to show gay porn at the funeral? What sin, exactly, was to be celebrated?

My only point was that in that particular church, they consider that a sin (that can't be argued). Not all churches are the same. I just believe that if that is their belief, then they should be able to hold to that without any complaint.

The more I think about it, the more it bugs me. Why were the siblings making the decisions anyway, instead of his partner? And why were they so eager to accept the offer to bury him from a church they must have known was anti-gay? I think it was insulting to the memory of the deceased to allow these people to involve themselves in the first place.

You're probably right about the siblings and his partner. But, I bet you that there was probably disagreement between them also about where they wanted the service held, so I'm guessing it's not just the Churches fault. All I'm saying is we don't know the whole story. Personally, I believe that whoever was closest to him should have planned the cerimony (whoever that may be).

Involving Christian clergy in the funerals of gay men is a touchy subject for me and a lot of people I know, for a reason.

In the 1990s an acquaintance of mine was visited during his final illness by a Presbyterian minister, and he was impressed by the minister, and asked him to officiate at his funeral. The minister accepted, then he got up at the funeral and announced that Bob was in hell because he was gay. It was a huge deal, it made the national news, even. Some people walked out of the funeral, and those who stayed were livid. The thing is, the minister really didn't mean to be hateful. It's just that his religious background didn't give him the tools to think of a gay man as a real person like himself.

People are still angry. From time to time, somebody will mention going to church, and somebody will say, "I don't do organized religion; remember Bob's funeral?"

Sorry to hear about that. I'm sure that was very frustrating to hear that in a funeral or anytime.

 

[Jeremiah]

My only point was that in that particular church, they consider that a sin (that can't be argued).

I think that is a major key to the problem. It seems to be a sin that they are proud of.

This is just another example where some churches have failed to move on.

I once sat through a sermon where the preacher went on how the Bible claimed women where evil and never to be trusted. When I looked around the room I did not see disgust on the faces of the men in the room. What I saw was even more disturbing, intent interests. They wanted to hear what he was saying!
I listened on thinking maybe I mistook the message. :no:

I never went back to that church.

Some churches seem obsessed with homosexuality, I find this disturbing.

There are so many other sins in the Bible that have been overlooked what is the big deal with homosexuality. To me it is obvious it is not about the sin it is about having a reason to hate. With out the Bible there would be no case against homosexuality.

I know many Christians that say, God does not put good people in hell even if they don't believe in the Bible.

 

[Smoke]

My only point was that in that particular church, they consider that a sin (that can't be argued). Not all churches are the same. I just believe that if that is there belief, then they should be able to hold to that without any complaint.

Do you think it's at all hypocritical to single out queers and not other sinners?

In 2005, the Bishop of San Diego issued a directive that no Catholic parish should serve the funeral of Robert McCusker, a gay bar owner. Bishop Brom's office explained:

To avoid public scandal Mr. McCusker can't be granted a funeral in a Catholic church or chapel in the Diocese of San Diego.
​

and

The bishop acted as he did so that the faithful would not be misled and erroneously conclude that the church condones activities such as those included in the businesses of Mr. McCusker.
​

Compare that to Cardinal O'Connor's decision to allow Jackie Onassis' funeral to be served at the Church of St. Ignatius -- despite the fact that she had been living with another woman's husband for many years -- and to allow her married lover to speak at the funeral, as well.

 

[Todd]

I think that is a major key to the problem. It seems to be a sin that they are proud of.

This is just another example where some churches have failed to move on.

How do you move on....re-write the entire bible. Or should Christians just ignore certain things in the bible. It's a belief, nothing more. I'm not condoning insulting people, or harassing people, I'm just saying you should be able to believe what you want to believe. Not to mention, this isn't just a Christian thing, but you should add other religions to it also as some other religions do not believe in Homosexuality.

There are so many other sins in the Bible that have been overlooked what is the big deal with homosexuality.

Totally agree.

To me it is obvious it is not about the sin it is about having a reason to hate.

Couldn't be further from the truth from my point of view. Just because someone sins according to the Bible, doesn't mean I hate that person. Just like I hate the sin in myself, but don't hate myself.

With out the Bible there would be no case against homosexuality.

Your probably right. Although other religious texts which are against it would have also needed to be destroyed too.

 

[Todd]

Do you think it's at all hypocritical to single out queers and not other sinners?

Yes. I've been saying that all along, even in my original post. Maybe not wording it correctly though .

 

[Todd]

Do you think it's at all hypocritical to single out queers and not other sinners?

Just to show part of my OP, here's what I said.

I somewhat understand where this church is coming from, but am confused at the same time. In my belief judging from the Bible, it is a sin, but no different from any sin that I have committed. Makes me wonder if because I've committed sin in my life, if they would do a memorial of me when I die. They probably would, which is why I don't understand why he couldn't have a memorial

All I'm saying in this is that using the "sin" logic, they should discriminate against me also because I sin according to the bible.

 

[rocka21]

Do you think it's at all hypocritical to single out queers and not other sinners?

they did not single out queers, read the story, they were going to do his service and knew he was gay.

 

[Jeremiah]

How do you move on....re-write the entire bible. Or should Christians just ignore certain things in the bible.

:yes: Sorry but that is how I feel, but I do understand some people do not consider that a option. But the Bible does include some thing the maybe should be overlooked.

It's a belief, nothing more. I'm not condoning insulting people, or harassing people, I'm just saying you should be able to believe what you want to believe.

Ethically yes.

Not to mention, this isn't just a Christian thing, but you should add other religions to it also as some other religions do not believe in Homosexuality.

Sorry it was not my intent to lay all the blame on Christians I know that the majority of Christians are good people and really the blame lies with a smaller but louder group of people.

Although other religious texts which are against it would have also needed to be destroyed too.

I do not want such a thing, I do want people to understand that these religious texts where written thousands of years go when people had a different way and different ethics.

 

[Smoke]

they did not single out queers, read the story, they were going to do his service and knew he was gay.

From story:

The church’s pastor, the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men “engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing.”​

 

[cardero]

Midnight Blue writes: In the 1990s an acquaintance of mine was visited during his final illness by a Presbyterian minister, and he was impressed by the minister, and asked him to officiate at his funeral. The minister accepted, then he got up at the funeral and announced that Bob was in hell because he was gay. It was a huge deal, it made the national news, even. Some people walked out of the funeral, and those who stayed were livid. The thing is, the minister really didn't mean to be hateful. It's just that his religious background didn't give him the tools to think of a gay man as a real person like himself.

A similar reception was given by the residing priest for my mother’s funeral. He continually called her a sinner and never even mentioned her 8 year service as a Sunday School teacher for the church and then started in on a tirade about abortion (?!?!?!). This priest knew my mother just as much as he knew God. I was so disgusted, I wanted to leave. After the service, people started to walk out and come up to me to ask me what my mother did that was wrong that would qualify her as a sinner, I was so upset that this man insulted her memory. And the kicker to it all, is that we paid for this.

 

[ChristineES]

Oh, you know, I get so sick of that attitude. Poor, pitiful Christians: all they want to do is demonize everybody who's different from them, and people always take it the wrong way! It's so mean!

Just so you know, most of the people I love are Christians.

You are the one who is judging! I don't HATE anyone at all. I have been trying so hard to get people to understand that all Christians are not these bigoted, narrow minded folks you seem to think we all are. I have put up with enough of this!

I

s there any indication in the story that the siblings of the deceased are nonbelievers? It seems likely to me that they're Christians, too, and that's why they were so surprised at the bad behavior of their fellow Christians.

And there it is again. What you are NOT getting is that not all Christians or even close will do this sort of thing.

Really? Which atheist invented the atom bomb? Are you under the impression that it was invented by one man working alone?

Now, I don't doubt that atheists were prominent in the invention of the bomb. But we know for sure that it was Christians who dropped it.

I know for a fact that Einstein was an atheist., but that wasn't the point. The point was that not all atheists were to blame for the invention of the bomb and NOT ALL CHRISTIANS are responsible for what is going on at this Church.

 

[Smoke]

You are the one who is judging! I don't HATE anyone at all. I have been trying so hard to get people to understand that all Christians are not these bigoted, narrow minded folks you seem to think we all are. I have put up with enough of this!

I never said you hated anybody, and I know that all Christians are not like that. Most of the people I know are Christians.

However, some Christians respond to criticism by complaining that people just hate them because they're Christians. It seems to me that you've done that at least twice in this thread.

NOT ALL CHRISTIANS are responsible for what is going on at this Church.

No, but the overwhelming majority of Christians belong to churches that actively discriminate against gay people in one way or another, so how is this church all that different?

 

[ChristineES]

I am not saying that EVERYONE hates Christians, I am saying that there are some who hate Christians and find any reason to do so. The person who originally started this thread insinuated that since one Church dishonored a veteran, that ALL CHRISTIANS in the whole world are to blame too. He or she must have known that we could not let that go unchallenged. Just because one Church did this thing, does not mean that all Christians agree with it. The person stated that we should all be ashamed of being Christians because of this ONE Church, and that to me is incredibly wrong and insensitive and just as insensitive as that one Church was. (and it isn't even that whole congregation, but the leaders of it)

 

[Smoke]

I am not saying that EVERYONE hates Christians, I am saying that there are some who hate Christians and find any reason to do so. The person who originally started this thread insinuated that since one Church dishonored a veteran, that ALL CHRISTIANS in the whole world are to blame too. He or she must have known that we could not let that go unchallenged. Just because one Church did this thing, does not mean that all Christians agree with it. The person stated that we should all be ashamed of being Christians because of this ONE Church, and that to me is incredibly wrong and insensitive and just as insensitive as that one Church was. (and it isn't even that whole congregation, but the leaders of it)

Questions:

1) Would this offend you if the deceased were not a veteran?

2) Do you deny that most Christian churches discriminate against LGBTs?

3) Why is the anti-gay discrimination practiced by this church against a dead man worse than the anti-gay discrimination practiced by most churches against living people?

 

[ChristineES]

1) Would this offend you if the deceased were not a veteran? Yes, it would still offend me even if I never was in the Navy. That Church is very much to blame for how people view Christians.

2) Do you deny that most Christian churches discriminate against LGBTs? I can't deny anything of the sort.

3) Why is the anti-gay discrimination practiced by this church against a dead man worse than the anti-gay discrimination practiced by most churches against living people? I never said it was. Every Church should practice the same kind of LOVE that Jesus did. Unfortunately, some don't.

 

[Smoke]

Every Church should practice the same kind of LOVE that Jesus did. Unfortunately, some don't.

Very few of them do. I'm glad you feel the way you do about bigotry, but most Christians seem to have no problem belonging to churches that actively practice and encourage bigotry.

 

[Jeremiah]

I know for a fact that Einstein was an atheist.,

Einstein did not invent the atomic bomb.

In 1905, as part of his Special Theory of Relativity, he made the intriguing point that a large amount of energy could be released from a small amount of matter. This was expressed by the equation E=mc2 (energy = mass times the speed of light squared). The atomic bomb would clearly illustrate this principle.

But bombs were not what Einstein had in mind when he published this equation. Indeed, he considered himself to be a pacifist.

People used the discoveries of a great man for the purpose of war.

---


Robert Oppenheimer - Known as "the father of the atomic bomb,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer#Trinity

But really if you want to blame someone for the atomic bomb than blame our government.

 

[Buttercup]

You know, this thread has made me very curious. On Monday I'm going to call the pastor of the church I used to attend and ask what the church's stance would be in the same situation.

Has anyone ever been to a memorial led by an evangelical pastor for someone who's gay?

 

[*Paul*]

I can't see what they did wrong, it seems to me that they tried to one the one hand not go against their conscience which would be sin and then on the other do what they could for the family. So yes i'm still proud to be called a Christian.

 

[wizanda]

I have spent my life analysing this, just to check…
Christians are the Anti-Christ!…I don’t hate them, yet they have disgusted us for defilement of the Bible….John, Paul and Simon are Christians teachings and they state opposite to Christ….
All Christians according to Christ are guilty of his murder and so when there is blame; perhaps they should look at them self’s, as they always seem to be pointing fingers first.
So let’s just explain it, Christ is removing tares out of the field…this is Christians as you took an oath against him…