And you're proud to be christian?

[Smoke]

I can't see what they did wrong, it seems to me that they tried to one the one hand not go against their conscience which would be sin and then on the other do what they could for the family. So yes i'm still proud to be called a Christian.

Do you think it's always good to follow your conscience, or do you think you also have a responsibility to have a moral conscience? Are there some values and principles that are better than others? If so, do people have any responsibility to choose the better ones?

 

[michel]

How?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20221295/

There are as many misguided Christians as there are good ones; in fact, I would hope that there are more "guided ones". Please don't reflect an entire religion on the actions of a few..............

 

[michel]

Do you think it's always good to follow your conscience, or do you think you also have a responsibility to have a moral conscience? Are there some values and principles that are better than others? If so, do people have any responsibility to choose the better ones?

That would be an excellemnt thread in its own right; I'll leave the honours to you.

 

[FFH]

And you are proud to be a Christian-hating atheist?

Wow, don't assume, never assume..

The LDS church will also not allow certain eulogies to be held in their chapels, for instance, my cousin shot himself with a rifle a day or two before he was to give his LDS missionary farewell speech and if you die of suicide your family is not allowed to have a eulogy, in an LDS chapel, in their honor, at least that was the case about 15 years back.

The LDS church has since eased up on their position concerning suicide and might have changed their rule, concerning eulogies in their chapels, of those who have commited suicide.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

Yes.

Mother Teresa was a very kind, loving, and devoted lady. Spending her life caring for the sick and destitute was a great thing. But we have to realize that such devotion is not confined to Christianity, or even just religion - atheists may also have such 'humanitarian' (as opposed to Spiritual) qualities. Many socialist governments do the same for their own communities (especially in some European countries).

It reminds me of when Jesus rebuked those who criticized a disciple for using a very precious and expensive ointment to anoint him (instead of using the money to help the poor) - the poor will always be with you.

Which is more important - the Spirit or the body?
(no doubt many will misunderstand what I have here said!).

 

[michel]

Mother Teresa was a very kind, loving, and devoted lady. Spending her life caring for the sick and destitute was a great thing. But we have to realize that such devotion is not confined to Christianity, or even just religion - atheists may also have such 'humanitarian' (as opposed to Spiritual) qualities. Many socialist governments do the same for their own communities (especially in some European countries).

It reminds me of when Jesus rebuked those who criticized a disciple for using a very precious and expensive ointment to anoint him (instead of using the money to help the poor) - the poor will always be with you.

Which is more important - the Spirit or the body?
(no doubt many will misunderstand what I have here said!).

That is obvious; it really (in my mind) did not need saying.
You ask

Which is more important - the Spirit or the body?

To which the very easy answer (to me) is the Spirit - the spirit is everlasting; the body is merely a vehicle for the spirit during our short span/s here.

 

[PureX]

I can't see what they did wrong, it seems to me that they tried to one the one hand not go against their conscience which would be sin and then on the other do what they could for the family. So yes i'm still proud to be called a Christian.

How is having a funeral service for a sinner, a sin?

 

[PureX]

does this church have the 'Right' to hold service for who they want?

Having the right to be a bigot doesn't mean it's OK to be a bigot. This discussion isn't about the church's legal rights.

 

[PureX]

The person who originally started this thread insinuated that since one Church dishonored a veteran, that ALL CHRISTIANS in the whole world are to blame too.

Actually, he did not insinuate that all Christians are to blame for what happened. What he insinuated was that all Christians should be ashamed of themselves for what had been done in their name.

And he has somewhat of a point.

Aren't you ashamed of what was done, here, in the name of Christ? If so, then your answer to the OP is "yes". Maybe your defensiveness in this instance is causing you to miss the point. And the point is that Christians SHOULD be ashamed when they hear that other Christians are doing these kinds of things in the name of Christ and Christianity. Maybe instead of being so defensive, you could be condemning the bigotry that MANY of your fellow-Christians are practicing in Christ's name.

That being said, though, I can certainly understand and empathize with your feeling defensive about this. It is a common practice to smear all of Christianity with the bad behavior of SOME Christians. And that is unfair. It's a form of bigotry, itself ... of religious bigotry.

 

[Fluffy]

I don't really have anything to say that hasn't been said already on the thread title question so I will just lend my support to those who have denounced this unfair attack on Christians.

However, I don't really think the actions of this church were unjustified or immoral. They don't really demonstrate love but nor are they hateful.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

That is obvious; it really (in my mind) did not need saying.

I was merely pointing out to 'Mister Emu' that Mother Teresa's actions are not a particularly valid reason to be proud of being a Christian.

I might also add that the same applies to Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[MaddLlama]

I was merely pointing out to 'Mister Emu' that Mother Teresa's actions are not a particularly valid reason to be proud of being a Christian.

I might also add that the same applies to Martin Luther King Jr.

Maybe not for you, but did it ever occur to you that just because you dislike Christianity, and certain people, that not everyone agrees with you? Or *gasp* that some people might feel the opposite way you do despite your silly, not well-thought out criticisms?

 

[*Paul*]

Do you think it's always good to follow your conscience, or do you think you also have a responsibility to have a moral conscience? Are there some values and principles that are better than others? If so, do people have any responsibility to choose the better ones?

Having a conscience towards God is a moral conscience since for a Christian He is the one who decided what is moral. For the Christian Gods values and principles are most important.

 

[*Paul*]

How is having a funeral service for a sinner, a sin?

If they could not do it with a clear conscience towards God then they are sinning if they do it. Because in their hearts they are doing that they believe God does not want them to do.

It's the same principle as this:


Epistle to Romans 14:20-23 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[fantome profane]

Don't forget it was an atheist who invented the Atom bomb that destroyed millions of lives--Are all you atheists proud of that?

I know for a fact that Einstein was an atheist., but that wasn't the point. The point was that not all atheists were to blame for the invention of the bomb and NOT ALL CHRISTIANS are responsible for what is going on at this Church.

What was the religious persuasion of the person who actually made the decision to drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

I hesitate to point this out, because I do not wish to engage in the kind of “Christian bashing” that was perhaps intended with this thread, nor do I wish to blame the whole of Christianity for the actions of one. But for you to blame this on Albert Einstein, and to imply that it is somehow connected to his atheism is obscene, disgusting, offensive and just plain stupid! Einstein was not only a brilliant man, but also a man of great moral character and insight. He was an atheist but he was also a man of great spirituality. He did not invent this weapon, he did not build this weapon, and he did not use this weapon.

The decision to use this weapon ultimately came from Harry S. Truman – a Baptist! I am not judging all Christians for this, nor am I judging all Baptists. (In fact I am not even judging Harry S. Truman, I think it was the wrong decision but I understand that things were not so simple for him). But I cannot remain silent as you defame the name of a good man for the decision made by another.


Sorry if I am taking this thread off topic. Let me add that I understand that what you are trying to do is show that LogDog is wrong to try to defame an entire religion by the actions of a few. But there must be a better way of doing that than to insult Einstein.

 

[PureX]

If they could not do it with a clear conscience towards God then they are sinning if they do it. Because in their hearts they are doing that they believe God does not want them to do.

But I think you're sort of avoiding the question. You're saying that THEY THINK it's a sin because they think if they give that man a funeral service that they're somehow sanctioning or forgiving his homosexuality, and that this will encourage others to practice homosexual behavior. But they think this way because they believe that they're responsible for the thoughts and desires and actions of other people, when clearly they are not.

Do you believe that your words and behaviors effect my choices? Do you believe that my sins are your fault if you don't punish me for them? It's ideas like these that form the foundation of Christian arrogance and bigotry.

I agree with you that this is likely what they're thinking. But their thinking is wrong, and is based on ego and hubris, and that's why they actions are so spiteful, in spite of their supposed good intentions.

 

[Storm]

Einstein wasn't an atheist anyway, he was a pantheist.

 

[fantome profane]

Einstein wasn't an atheist anyway, he was a pantheist.

Debatable, but a debate for another thread.

 

[Storm]

Agreed.

 

[Booko]

Having a conscience towards God is a moral conscience since for a Christian He is the one who decided what is moral. For the Christian Gods values and principles are most important.

Very true, *Paul* and yet here there are conflicting values and principles, and the question is which values and principles of God's the mere humans chose to assert.

They could just as well have concluded that since Christ showed an example of hanging with sinners in order to bring them to God, and since compassion toward the bereaved is a principle, they might've chosen the other way.

Unfortunately being on dial up at the moment I'm not able to see the video, so more detailed comment is not really possible.