And you're proud to be christian?

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Guys, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but LogDog has a point here, even if it didn't come out right.

How?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20221295/

Sick, absurd, and disgusting. I'll remember this the next time the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line comes up in a homosexuality debate.

That was too easy.

Now try looking up something that shows Christians at their best.

Oh hell, those stories exist by the truckload. No denial there on my part.

The catch, though, is that there doesn't appear to be a noticeable difference for the better on the part of Christians as compared to non-Christians. IMO, that's not an indictment against Christians per se--Christians are human, after all--but rather against the supposed presence of an allegedly benevolent and all-powerful Holy Spirit that would lead Christians to behave a lot better than they do as a whole.

Logdog,

The title of your thread is quite insulting. I think there is a subject worth debating within the link you provided but I would advise you to change the title of the thread.

It seems the church did show some kind gestures toward the family in providing food, making the memorial video and offering to pay for another venue for the service. I give them credit for that. However, it really broke my heart they declined the memorial service be held at their church, like this vet was someone to throw away. At least that's how I felt.

Where do gays go for memorial services?

Well again, it didn't come out right, but IMO he has a point. Liberal Christians tend to be pretty good about speaking up against such injustices, but why the silence from fundamentalists? (Apologies to Catholics, Mormons, and other Christians; I'm not sure where you as a group stand on dealing with these sorts of issues.)

 

[MaddLlama]

A question for the Christians here who believe that being gay is wrong:

How is holding a funeral service for a gay person encouraging others to be gay, or having a bad influence on the straight church membership? The main argument against it seems to be that by having the funeral in that church it would demonstrate that the church condoned being gay. I'm not sure I understand how that works.

 

[rocka21]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070811/us_nm/religion_lutherans_dc



Things are a-changin'!

for some

 

[Todd]

Regardless of the ignorance of the original post title, I somewhat understand where this church is coming from, but am confused at the same time. In my belief judging from the Bible, it is a sin, but no different from any sin that I have committed. Makes me wonder if because I've committed sin in my life, if they would do a memorial of me when I die. They probably would, which is why I don't understand why he couldn't have a memorial

The only thing is that we don't know the whole story from both parties. That particular churches belief is that homosexuality is a sin (and should be permissible to have their belief and to enforce there belief in their own church, just as any other church and any other belief). I just mentioned earlier, that we all sin. Now, if the family wanted to celebrate the sin that this particular church is against during the ceremony, then the church has every right to oppose it. However, just because he was gay doesn't mean that he shouldn't be allowed a memorial in the church just as long as they don't celebrate a sin in the service that that church is against.

Sorry if that might sound close minded to some, but just trying to meet half way.

 

[rocka21]

i still think it was too late, if you say your going to do it, go through with it.

 

[PureX]

A question for the Christians here who believe that being gay is wrong:

How is holding a funeral service for a gay person encouraging others to be gay, or having a bad influence on the straight church membership? The main argument against it seems to be that by having the funeral in that church it would demonstrate that the church condoned being gay. I'm not sure I understand how that works.

I agree with your point, here. I don't think anyone is bothered by the fact that these folks disagree with homosexuality, or that they believe it is a sin. Many Christians feel the same way. I think what's sad, and somewhat revolting, is that they choose to take it upon themselves to "punish the sinners", as though they were somehow sinless, themselves.

Having a funeral service for a sinner in no way condones their sins. If it were, then they should refuse to have funerals for anyone. A homosexual is no more or less a sinner than anyone else is.

 

[ChristineES]

As tragic as this is, it doesn't reflect what I believe any more than it reflects what you believe. I'm no more "proud" to be a Christian than I am "ashamed" to be one. After all this time on RF, you still don't get it, do you? All Christians aren't alike. All Muslims aren't alike. All atheists aren't alike. When is this going to sink in?

Don't expect it to sink in. They WANT to hate us. It seems they are allowed to hate anyone they want and it is OK, but it is wrong if Christians think anything is wrong. Why do Christians have to accept everything? Nonbelievers don't accept everything. For one thing, they don't accept Christians, yet we have to accept them?
Don't forget it was an atheist who invented the Atom bomb that destroyed millions of lives--Are all you atheists proud of that?

 

[ChristineES]

Some people don't get it. It isn't whether it was wrong what a few people do, it is about judging all people for what a few do. You don't want it done to you, so why do you do it to us.
Stereotyping is always wrong, not just when it happens to you, but to other people, as well.

And by the way, I am very proud to follow Jesus, even if I am not proud of what some people do in the name of God.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Don't expect it to sink in. They WANT to hate us. It seems they are allowed to hate anyone they want and it is OK, but it is wrong if Christians think anything is wrong. Why do Christians have to accept everything? Nonbelievers don't accept everything. For one thing, they don't accept Christians, yet we have to accept them?
Don't forget it was an atheist who invented the Atom bomb that destroyed millions of lives--Are all you atheists proud of that?

The bold text assumption is patently untrue, and the statement paints our community with a very large broad brush, too.

:flower: Not all non-theists agree with this kind of combative approach from the OP. There might be bones to pick here and there (such as what the link shows, which I understand the bad feelings), but the OP was a clumsy attempt for debate at best, and a distasteful and insulting attempt at worst.

BTW, Robert Oppenheimer only headed the Manhatten Project that developed the atomic bomb. Upon the first test completion, Oppenheimer is famously known to quote the Hindu Bhagavad Gita. I'm not sure if he was Agnostic or if he was an Atheist, but I am sure of his fascination of Eastern religions and cultures.

No, Christians don't accept everything. I don't think non-theists in general expect Christians to accept everything. The issues lie in how non-theists - and non-Christians - can live in a culture where Christians hold an overwhelming political power and who can choose to enact policies that maintain the kind of power that can seriously marginalize non-Christians.

Or, in this case, homosexuals.

The article sheds light to this kind of marginalization that the GLBTQ community sees on a daily basis.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[ChristineES]

The bold text assumption is patently untrue, and the statement paints our community with a very large broad brush, too.

:flower: Not all non-theists agree with this kind of combative approach from the OP. There might be bones to pick here and there (such as what the link shows, which I understand the bad feelings), but the OP was a clumsy attempt for debate at best, and a distasteful and insulting attempt at worst.


Peace,
Mystic

I know very well that not all nontheists hate us, this was directed only to the ones that do. I love all people, including atheists, and it hurts me when they hate me for no reason whatsoever. I would let any soldier have honor, no matter what, and I was insulted to be accused of what someone else did. That is just so totally wrong and I would not do it to them.

 

[Jeremiah]

They probably would, which is why I don't understand why he couldn't have a memorial

For that reason alone I do not think it was about the sin.

Sorry if that might sound close minded to some, but just trying to meet half way.

Thanks! I'll try to do the same.

----

Logdog,

I am sure that most Christians find unethical acts within their religion even more disturbing than you do.

 

[Katzpur]

Guys, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but LogDog has a point here, even if it didn't come out right. Sick, absurd, and disgusting. I'll remember this the next time the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line comes up in a homosexuality debate.

Yes, it is sick, absurd and disgusting. Now, since you don't seem to see a problem with LogDog's premise, maybe you could explain to me how this one Church's sick, absurd and disgusting actions should make me be ashamed to be a Christian. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[ChristineES]

I honor all of our veteran's no matter what their lifestyle was. It is a great honor to serve for your country. I was in the Navy, myself, I was in during desert storm, although I never fought in any war. I have a lot of respect for any veteran. It is wrong to exclude him just because he was gay. I am a Christian, too.

 

[Smoke]

Now, if the family wanted to celebrate the sin that this particular church is against during the ceremony, then the church has every right to oppose it.

How, exactly, would the family "celebrate the sin"? It's my understanding that even in the most narrow-minded churches, it's not a sin for two men to love each other or live together. It's only the sex they object to, supposedly. Did the family want to put up posters showing the deceased having sex with his partner? Did they want to show gay porn at the funeral? What sin, exactly, was to be celebrated?

The more I think about it, the more it bugs me. Why were the siblings making the decisions anyway, instead of his partner? And why were they so eager to accept the offer to bury him from a church they must have known was anti-gay? I think it was insulting to the memory of the deceased to allow these people to involve themselves in the first place.

Involving Christian clergy in the funerals of gay men is a touchy subject for me and a lot of people I know, for a reason.

In the 1990s an acquaintance of mine was visited during his final illness by a Presbyterian minister, and he was impressed by the minister, and asked him to officiate at his funeral. The minister accepted, then he got up at the funeral and announced that Bob was in hell because he was gay. It was a huge deal, it made the national news, even. Some people walked out of the funeral, and those who stayed were livid. The thing is, the minister really didn't mean to be hateful. It's just that his religious background didn't give him the tools to think of a gay man as a real person like himself.

People are still angry. From time to time, somebody will mention going to church, and somebody will say, "I don't do organized religion; remember Bob's funeral?"

I've left instructions that no clergyman or clergywoman whomsoever is to officiate at my funeral, and I'd prefer that no Christian clergy be present at all. Every large Christian denomination, and most of the independent megachurches, have official policies of discrimination against LGBTs. I consider it the rankest kind of insult to the deceased to involve officials and agents of those groups in the funerals of LGBTs.

Unfortunately, people have to keep learning the hard way what a bad idea it is.

 

[Buttercup]

In the 1990s an acquaintance of mine was visited during his final illness by a Presbyterian minister, and he was impressed by the minister, and asked him to officiate at his funeral. The minister accepted, then he got up at the funeral and announced that Bob was in hell because he was gay. It was a huge deal, it made the national news, even. Some people walked out of the funeral, and those who stayed were livid. The thing is, the minister really didn't mean to be hateful. It's just that his religious background didn't give him the tools to think of a gay man as a real person like himself.

I haven't heard something that blatantly rude in quite awhile. The insensitivity was incredible. Wow

 

[rocka21]

I've left instructions that no clergyman or clergywoman whomsoever is to officiate at my funeral, and I'd prefer that no Christian clergy be present at all. Every large

Christian denomination, and most of the independent megachurches, have official policies of discrimination against LGBTs. I consider it the rankest kind of insult to the deceased to involve officials and agents of those groups in the funerals of LGBTs.

Unfortunately, people have to keep learning the hard way what a bad idea it is.

right! why would this person family even try to have a service at this church if they know there stance on gays

 

[rocka21]

Yes, it is sick, absurd and disgusting. Now, since you don't seem to see a problem with LogDog's premise, maybe you could explain to me how this one Church's sick, absurd and disgusting actions should make me be ashamed to be a Christian. I'm genuinely curious.

does this church have the 'Right' to hold service for who they want?

 

[Smoke]

Don't expect it to sink in. They WANT to hate us. It seems they are allowed to hate anyone they want and it is OK, but it is wrong if Christians think anything is wrong.

Oh, you know, I get so sick of that attitude. Poor, pitiful Christians: all they want to do is demonize everybody who's different from them, and people always take it the wrong way! It's so mean!

Just so you know, most of the people I love are Christians.

Why do Christians have to accept everything? Nonbelievers don't accept everything. For one thing, they don't accept Christians, yet we have to accept them?

Is there any indication in the story that the siblings of the deceased are nonbelievers? It seems likely to me that they're Christians, too, and that's why they were so surprised at the bad behavior of their fellow Christians.

Don't forget it was an atheist who invented the Atom bomb that destroyed millions of lives--Are all you atheists proud of that?

Really? Which atheist invented the atom bomb? Are you under the impression that it was invented by one man working alone?

Now, I don't doubt that atheists were prominent in the invention of the bomb. But we know for sure that it was Christians who dropped it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

CAN WE PLEASE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

I am sorry for yelling. If we are ever going to have freedom of religion, everyone is going to have to exercise a little more tolerance for each other.

Here is the deal, if we don't protect the disgusting among us, all of us are in danger of being told what to do think and act.

Myself, I would have preached the funeral. Every church has the right to not have a service as well.

People are flawed. Everyone of us has flaws, opinions and yes, prejudices. If you think you do not have a flaw, that in it's self is a flaw.

No matter how messed up that was to cancel the services, we all need to understand that we cannot tell other folks what to do when it comes to religious beliefs.

I believe this thread is just as distasteful as the actions it rails against.

Let's all get out of the mud and treat each other like the deceased should have been treated.

 

[Katzpur]

does this church have the 'Right' to hold service for who they want?

Yes, the Church may have that right, but having a right is not necessarily the same thing as doing what's right.