Animal sacrifice: out of fashion

[dybmh]

No, the claim is that the cut is painless.

Less painful than an eartag. Virtually painless.

That is all. Videos are hard evidence.

Not if they're not strictly kosher.

They say that in modern factories with high demands that it is not l like that.

They say... is not an argument, it's a rumor. And it is immediately rejected when compared to measured academic reasearch coming from an animal rights activist like Dr. Grandin who is motivated to report animal cruelty.

3000+ observed. 95% immediate unconsciousness. The only reaction is a small shiver.

Why do you think that it is so hard to get video of kosher slaughter if it is so "painless"?

So, you haven't seen any videos of Jewish ritual slaughter. Thought so. Since you don't know the difference between Halal slaughter and kosher slaughter, you'd never know the difference.

I watchd some videos, they didn't look kosher to me.

Couldn't see the Rabbinic supervision..
The neck was not washed..
Couldn't see the knife..
The wound was not inspected..

Not kosher. No names given on the actual slaughter house.

If you don't know, why assume it's kosher?
Your own source can't get this right either.

Credibility of your opinion? Zero.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Less painful than an eartag. Virtually painless.



Not if they're not strictly kosher.



They say... is not an argument, it's a rumor. And it is immediately rejected when compared to measured academic reasearch coming from an animal rights activist like Dr. Grandin who is motivated to report animal cruelty.

3000+ observed. 95% immediate unconsciousness. The only reaction is a small shiver.



So, you haven't seen any videos of Jewish ritual slaughter. Thought so. Since you don't know the difference between Halal slaughter and kosher slaughter, you'd never know the difference.

I watchd some videos, they didn't look kosher to me.

Couldn't see the Rabbinic supervision..
The neck was not washed..
Couldn't see the knife..
The wound was not inspected..

Not kosher. No names given on the actual slaughter house.

If you don't know, why assume it's kosher?
Your own source can't get this right either.

Credibility of your opinion? Zero.

Okay, if you cannot have a proper and honest discussion then we are done.

 

[dybmh]

Okay, if you cannot have a proper and honest discussion then we are done.

I have been nothing but honest. Your source. 3000+ observations. 95% immediate unconscousness. No reaction but a slight shudder.

You have been wrong so much in this debate. Even to the point of ASSUMING Dr. Grandin is a "He". Total sexist garbage. You actually have shown your true colors in this thread.

Assuming the videos you're watching are kosher, but you don't know the difference.
Assuming the research you're reading is identifying kosher slaughter, but they don't.
Assuming that because an animal is breathing that the hypothalmus is not suppressed during stunning.
Assuming that the stun is not painful.
Assuming that the MDPI is 1 journal.
Assuming that MDPI has zero impact factor.
Assuming that MDPI is Chinese.
Assuming that Chinese cannot be trusted.

And then there's the obvious fact that you don't read the posts presented, and argue about them. You don't read your own sources much less what is presented in opposition. You don't care whether someting is peer-reviewed or not when it suits you. You object to "breaking up your post" eventhough you make repeated false statements, each one deserves a response.

Yes, based on your actions, I think you should tuck that little tail between your legs. Do some thinking. Try reading the thread, each post, completely. Click on the links, look at the footnotes. Click on those, read those. Think... You do know how to do these things right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have been nothing but honest. Your source. 3000+ observations. 95% immediate unconscousness. No reaction but a slight shudder.


View attachment 77635

View attachment 77639

You have been wrong so much in this debate. Even to the point of ASSUMING Dr. Grandin is a "He". Total sexist garbage. You actually have shown your true colors in this thread.

Assuming the videos you're watching are kosher, but you don't know the difference.
Assuming the research you're reading is identifying kosher slaughter, but they don't.
Assuming that because an animal is breathing that the hypothalmus is not suppressed during stunning.
Assuming that the stun is not painful.
Assuming that the MDPI is 1 journal.
Assuming that MDPI has zero impact factor.
Assuming that MDPI is Chinese.
Assuming that Chinese cannot be trusted.

And then there's the obvious fact that you don't read the posts presented, and argue about them. You don't read your own sources much less what is presented in opposition. You don't care whether someting is peer-reviewed or not when it suits you. You object to "breaking up your post" eventhough you make repeated false statements, each one deserves a response.

Yes, based on your actions, I think you should tuck that little tail between your legs. Do some thinking. Try reading the thread, each post, completely. Click on the links, look at the footnotes. Click on those, read those. Think... You do know how to do these things right?

Oh my! So many falsehoods. I guess the Ninth Commandment does not apply to forums.

An honest person asks question when he does not understand.

 

[dybmh]

Oh my! So many falsehoods. I guess the Ninth Commandment does not apply to forums.

An honest person asks question when he does not understand.

I haven't lied one time. And everything in that post is true. Your own source had 3000+ observed kosher slaughters. No reaction except for a light shudder. 95% immediate unconciousness. Same researcher, Dr. Grandin did both studies. A well known animal rights activist, would have indicated animal cruelty, and has, when it was witnessed.

You have been wrong so much in this debate. Even to the point of ASSUMING Dr. Grandin is a "He". Total sexist garbage. You actually have shown your true colors in this thread.

Assuming the videos you're watching are kosher, but you don't know the difference.
Assuming the research you're reading is identifying kosher slaughter, but they don't.
Assuming that because an animal is breathing that the hypothalmus is not suppressed during stunning.
Assuming that the stun is not painful.
Assuming that the MDPI is 1 journal.
Assuming that MDPI has zero impact factor.
Assuming that MDPI is Chinese.
Assuming that Chinese cannot be trusted.

And then there's the obvious fact that you don't read the posts presented, and argue about them. You don't read your own sources much less what is presented in opposition. You don't care whether someting is peer-reviewed or not when it suits you. You object to "breaking up your post" eventhough you make repeated false statements, each one deserves a response.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I haven't lied one time. And everything in that post is true. Your own source had 3000+ observed kosher slaughters. No reaction except for a light shudder. 95% immediate unconciousness. Same researcher, Dr. Grandin did both studies. A well known animal rights activist, would have indicated animal cruelty, and has, when it was witnessed.

View attachment 77653

View attachment 77656

You have been wrong so much in this debate. Even to the point of ASSUMING Dr. Grandin is a "He". Total sexist garbage. You actually have shown your true colors in this thread.

Assuming the videos you're watching are kosher, but you don't know the difference.
Assuming the research you're reading is identifying kosher slaughter, but they don't.
Assuming that because an animal is breathing that the hypothalmus is not suppressed during stunning.
Assuming that the stun is not painful.
Assuming that the MDPI is 1 journal.
Assuming that MDPI has zero impact factor.
Assuming that MDPI is Chinese.
Assuming that Chinese cannot be trusted.

And then there's the obvious fact that you don't read the posts presented, and argue about them. You don't read your own sources much less what is presented in opposition. You don't care whether someting is peer-reviewed or not when it suits you. You object to "breaking up your post" eventhough you make repeated false statements, each one deserves a response.

A falsehood is not necessarily a lie. It is merely a false claim about someone else. You made quite a few of those. The Ninth Commandment is not just a ban on lying. It is a ban on making false claims about others, even if one believes them. You may have believed your falsehoods. That does keep them from being lies. The Ninth Commandment still applies since whether one believes one's falsehoods or not the damage is still done. Any time that you use the word "assuming" what follows is almost certainly false.


And you really need to work on your latest fallacy. You are now relying very heavily on a No True Scotsman Fallacy.

 

[dybmh]

A falsehood is not necessarily a lie. It is merely a false claim about someone else. You made quite a few of those. The Ninth Commandment is not just a ban on lying. It is a ban on making false claims about others, even if one believes them. You may have believed your falsehoods. That does keep them from being lies. The Ninth Commandment still applies since whether one believes one's falsehoods or not the damage is still done. Any time that you use the word "assuming" what follows is almost certainly false.


And you really need to work on your latest fallacy. You are now relying very heavily on a No True Scotsman Fallacy.

Nonsense.

Kosher slaughter has ummmmm things that make it kosher. And if you're watching videos, and you don't know where they're from, and you don't know how to identify kosher standards. And you have failed on almost ever post and every page of this thread when it comes to accuracy...

And yet there are multiple studies, 3000 observations, by an known animal rights activist that is saying kosher slaughter is virtually painless and the animal 95% of the time is unconciousness immediately. You have no case. I have all the cards.

I have research and documented evidence. You've got argument from ignorance and a few youtubes.

Dude! You got a whole lot of nothing. Hot snot on a silver platter? Not even cold boogers on a paper plate.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nonsense.

Kosher slaughter has ummmmm things that make it kosher. And if you're watching videos, and you don't know where they're from, and you don't know how to identify kosher standards. And you have failed on almost ever post and every page of this thread when it comes to accuracy...

And yet there are multiple studies, 3000 observations, by an known animal rights activist that is saying kosher slaughter is virtually painless and the animal 95% of the time is unconciousness immediately. You have no case. I have all the cards.

I have research and documented evidence. You've got argument from ignorance and a few youtubes.

Dude! You got a whole lot of nothing. Hot snot on a silver platter? Not even cold boogers on a paper plate.

No, if you are buying that beef and eating it it is "kosher". Why aren't there videos by kosher slaughterhouses showing that those claims are not true? Especially from the large ones. For all types of butchery the large producers appear to be a problem much more so than small independents. You probably have eaten beef that was not slaughtered to your specifications.

 

[danieldemol]

BUZZZZZZZ. That's a false assumption. Again. Your lack of attention to detail is again evident. The priests did not make the rules.

'The entire composition of the book of Leviticus is Priestly literature.[19]'
Source: Book of Leviticus - Wikipedia

Sounds to me like the priests made up the rules and claimed they were from God via Moses (I'm guessing you believe that in the absence of your explanation of who you think made the rules).

But to a more sceptically minded person like myself the origin of these rules can only be traced back as far as the priests, further back than that I percieve no reliable evidence in my opinion.

 

[dybmh]

'The entire composition of the book of Leviticus is Priestly literature.[19]'
Source: Book of Leviticus - Wikipedia

But that doesn't mean the priests wrote it.

Sounds to me like the priests made up the rules and claimed they were from God via Moses (I'm guessing you believe that in the absence of your explanation of who you think made the rules).

It's about the priests, not by the priests. You are assuming... again.

But to a more sceptically minded person like myself the origin of these rules can only be traced back as far as the priests, further back than that I percieve no reliable evidence in my opinion.

What a minute: your skeptism has developed a concluson that MUST be true without a single drop of evidence? Have you actually read the book of leviticus. Like the whole thing? It sets up a system of preists who have to conform to a very difficult demanding lifestyle. they don't have cities of their own. They have no choices. And you think a group would impose this on themselves willingly?

That's a huge leap. But, if you have an anti-organized-religion bias, then all of your asumptions fit that bias. It's not skepticsm at all, is it?

 

[dybmh]

No, if you are buying that beef and eating it it is "kosher". Why aren't there videos by kosher slaughterhouses showing that those claims are not true? Especially from the large ones. For all types of butchery the large producers appear to be a problem much more so than small independents. You probably have eaten beef that was not slaughtered to your specifications.

Because you don't know that they're kosher slaughter houses. You don't have the knowledge to assess it, and unless the videos give that information in a credible way, they are not as reliable as academic studies.

I already said: If you want to post the videos, put them in a spoiler. Above the spoiler, put the date, the location, and the name of the slaughter house. Without that information, the best one can do is look for evidence that the method conforms to the defintion of Jewish ritual slaughter.

Lacking any information of either sort, credible details about the slaughter house, or any visibile evidence that the process conforms to Jewish ritual slaughter, the video is irrelevant, and all you have is argument from ignorance.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because you don't know that they're kosher slaughter houses. You don't have the knowledge to assess it, and unless the videos give that information in a credible way, they are not as reliable as academic studies.

I already said: If you want to post the videos, put them in a spoiler. Above the spoiler, put the date, the location, and the name of the slaughter house. Without that information, the best one can do is look for evidence that the method conforms to the defintion of Jewish ritual slaughter.

Lacking any information of either sort, credible details about the slaughter house, or any visibile evidence that the process conforms to Jewish ritual slaughter, the video is irrelevant, and all you have is argument from ignorance.

I see. So you are just going to assume that they are not kosher if they do not meet your standards? At least it seems that is what you are saying. If so that is a no true Scotsman fallacy on your part. One of the sources I posted earlier was an Australian one. But since then Australia has banned slaughter without stunning. Also, there are other methods to stun. Electricity is also used, and an article that I found, and I am pretty sure linked, about Muslim halal butchery with slaughter had them leaning that way.

 

[dybmh]

I see. So you are just going to assume that they are not kosher if they do not meet your standards?

No.... not my standards. Jewish ritual slaughter has a defintion.

At least it seems that is what you are saying.

Only if a person is drunk, high, blind, biased, etc.... that is NOT what I'm saying, not even close. You own sources have repeatedly asserted there is a defintion for Jewish ritual slaughter. It was defined before I was born.

If so that is a no true Scotsman fallacy on your part.

Since it isn't, youre making stupid arguments again.

One of the sources I posted earlier was an Australian one. But since then Australia has banned slaughter without stunning.

oopsie, another assumption which is wrong. details subD, details.

Also, there are other methods to stun. Electricity is also used, and an article that I found,

Yeah, but did you actually read the article? Electricity induces a seizure. You think that's without suffering.

Again, Jewish ritual slaughter: 3000+ observations. 95% immediate unconsciousness. No reaction other than a small shudder. The animals did not appear to be aware that their necks were being slit. All reported by a well known animal rights activist.

and I am pretty sure linked, about Muslim halal butchery with slaughter had them leaning that way.

Irrelevant. I am not arguing in favor of halal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No.... not my standards. Jewish ritual slaughter has a defintion.



Only if a person is drunk, high, blind, biased, etc.... that is NOT what I'm saying, not even close. You own sources have repeatedly asserted there is a defintion for Jewish ritual slaughter. It was defined before I was born.



Since it isn't, youre making stupid arguments again.



oopsie, another assumption which is wrong. details subD, details.

View attachment 77845



Yeah, but did you actually read the article? Electricity induces a seizure. You think that's without suffering.

Again, Jewish ritual slaughter: 3000+ observations. 95% immediate unconsciousness. No reaction other than a small shudder. The animals did not appear to be aware that their necks were being slit. All reported by a well known animal rights activist.



Irrelevant. I am not arguing in favor of halal.I

I see that you still cannot debate properly. That is okay, you have lost by reusing to do so.

 

[danieldemol]

But that doesn't mean the priests wrote it.

The priests may have had it recorded by the scribes or written it themselves, that i do not know, but according to the article I linked the origin of the literature was the priests. From the same Wikipedia article;

'The ritual instructions in the Priestly code apparently grew from priests giving instruction and answering questions about ritual matters; the Holiness code (or H) used to be a separate document, later becoming part of Leviticus, but it seems better to think of the Holiness authors as editors who worked with the Priestly code and actually produced Leviticus as is now extant.[21]

It's about the priests, not by the priests. You are assuming... again.

Nope, see above.

What a minute: your skeptism has developed a concluson that MUST be true without a single drop of evidence? Have you actually read the book of leviticus. Like the whole thing? It sets up a system of preists who have to conform to a very difficult demanding lifestyle. they don't have cities of their own. They have no choices. And you think a group would impose this on themselves willingly?

I dont think it is that demanding when you factor in that their rotating shifts gave them six days off at a time, they were only all required to be present on holy days and even then they worked shifts.

You claim they had no cities of their own, but who owned a city back then anyway?

You claim they had no choices but I'm saying it looks to me like these were their self imposed choices - simply self imposed austerity to set them apart as holier than the rest to justify taking the best portions and not working as often as the common folk.

That's a huge leap. But, if you have an anti-organized-religion bias, then all of your asumptions fit that bias. It's not skepticsm at all, is it?

I believe you have a pro-Judaism bias, I'm skeptical of that position.

In my opinion

 

[Subduction Zone]

By the way, @dybmh , my statement was correct. Slaughter without stunning is banned in Australia. Did you just read a headline? A few kosher slaughterhouses do still exist. They get to cut cows without stunning, but then they must immediately stun after that:

Key issues

We regularly mobilise our hundreds of thousands of supporters to call on governments and industries to prioritise animal welfare. Some of the key issues we’re currently working on are reducing the suffering of millions of layer hens in battery cages, and ending the long-haul live export of sheep...

www.rspca.org.au

"The standards for unstunned slaughter in Australia require that cattle are stunned immediately after the throat is cut. For sheep, there is no requirement for a post-cut stun unless the animal is distressed or does not lose consciousness quickly."

Your claim that I made an assumption was a falsehood.

 

[dybmh]

I see that you still cannot debate properly. That is okay, you have lost by reusing to do so.

If you have evidence that is coming from videos, post them in a spoiler, with the date, location, and name of the slaughter-house.

Lacking that information, you are arguing from ignorance.

There is much more academic research in support of my position than yours.

There is nothing wrong pointing out your stupidity when it occurs, and it has occured repeatedly. When you don't actually read or research, when you claim that Australia has banned non-stunned slaughter, but don't know that Jewish ritual slaughter can be exempt, that's just more and more reason to ridicule.

Why aren't you learning from your mistakes?

 

[dybmh]

The priests may have had it recorded by the scribes or written it themselves, that i do not know, but according to the article I linked the origin of the literature was the priests. From the same Wikipedia article;

'The ritual instructions in the Priestly code apparently grew from priests giving instruction and answering questions about ritual matters; the Holiness code (or H) used to be a separate document, later becoming part of Leviticus, but it seems better to think of the Holiness authors as editors who worked with the Priestly code and actually produced Leviticus as is now extant.[21]

All of that has become the minority position.

​

"The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed. This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s, who argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE), and rejected the existence of a substantial E source. They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources.​

​

Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

​

So, no one really knows who wrote the "Priestly" code, nor if it is even its own disitinct unit.

I dont think it is that demanding when you factor in that their rotating shifts gave them six days off at a time, they were only all required to be present on holy days and even then they worked shifts.

You are assuming they didn't have other work in the temple. The temple was operating 24/7.

You claim they had no cities of their own, but who owned a city back then anyway?

Clearly you don't know the bible story. Everyone else had land of their own.

You claim they had no choices but I'm saying it looks to me like these were their self imposed choices - simply self imposed austerity to set them apart as holier than the rest to justify taking the best portions and not working as often as the common folk.

Have you read the book of leviticus? Seriously, it's not a long read. You can even skim it. Look for the so-called "best parts". You keep saying this, but it doesn't match what's written. They get a portion. But it's not the best portion. It's the same portion everyone else gets.

I believe you have a pro-Judaism bias, I'm skeptical of that position.

But not of your own? You appear to have an anti-religion bias. I can put down my bias, and attempt to argue your position, but it fails. If you put down your bias, you'll see that my position is better supported.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you have evidence that is coming from videos, post them in a spoiler, with the date, location, and name of the slaughter-house.

Lacking that information, you are arguing from ignorance.

There is much more academic research in support of my position than yours.

There is nothing wrong pointing out your stupidity when it occurs, and it has occured repeatedly. When you don't actually read or research, when you claim that Australia has banned non-stunned slaughter, but don't know that Jewish ritual slaughter can be exempt, that's just more and more reason to ridicule.

Why aren't you learning from your mistakes?

LOL!! Oh my, you should never call someone stupid when your claim was refuted by the source that you sited.


Once again, when you can promise to debate properly we can start again.

 

[dybmh]

LOL!! Oh my, you should never call someone stupid when your claim was refuted by the source that you sited.

If you're being stupid, then, you're being stupid.

My claim is well supported. Your own sources prove you wrong. My sources support my conclusion. You attempted to undermine their credibility and failed. You failed and failed and failed.

Once again, when you can promise to debate properly we can start again.

Fact: 3000+ observations of Jewish ritual slaughter
Fact: 95% immediate unconsciousness
Fact: no reaction other than a small shudder
Fact: the cattle did not appear to notice their necks were being cut
Fact: this comes from your own source

The debate is over because of the facts.