Animal sacrifice: out of fashion

[Subduction Zone]

No it doesn't. And you ASSUMED that the ban didn't have an exception, when a simple tippy-tap on the keyboard would have shown otherwise.

You have proven yet again, that you do not read, nor research, and if you do, you do not understand. The source I brought confirms there is a legal exemption for ritual Jewish slaughter which means it is not stunned prior to slitting it's throat.

This can be further confirmed, by, ya know, going to the Australian governments website:

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

And then locating the proper policy definition. It's the first in the list. From there, the exemption is defined.

View attachment 78584

View attachment 78585
Yes, they need to be ready to stun, after, but if the animal suffers and isn't instantaneously unconscious, it isn't kosher anyway. Something went wrong with the cut. And if something goes wrong, the animal is supposed to be removed and allocated as non-kosher meat.



No I wasn't. I was right the entire time. There's academic sources studying hormone levels. Those agree with what I'm saying. There's academic sources measuring brain activity. Those agree with what I'm saying. Inspection by a well known animal rights activist of over 3000+ slaughters in ( I think ) 3 different kosher slaughter-houses showed 98% perfect results, immediate unconsciousness, the animal's reaction was nothing more than a small shudder and did not appear to know that its neck was slit.

All of that is FACT. And you have brought nothing to refute any of it. Just claims. Irrevelant data about hypertension. And assumptions... so many assumptions. You don't know HOW to identify Jewish ritual slaughter, so you are easily fooled by youtube videos.

But, most important, you cannot bring those videos without exposing your ignorance, lack of attention to detail, and faith in some random youtubes that don't give the location, date, and name of the slaughter-house being observed.



You don't know that. You have been repeatedly making these claims. But you don't have any evidence of what happens currently in a kosher slaughter house in Uruguay.

But yes, there are varying standards of what some people consider kosher. My kosher meat is labeled OU, and OU has revoked shackle-and-hoist. It took a while, but it happened.

View attachment 78586





No, that is a part of it. Something like 33%. 1 part of three. The most valuable info comes from the animal rights community because they have the bias against ritual slaughter but considers it humane inspite of the bias.

Even so, this autonomous rebuttal is nothing. It's a big "so what"? The stunning involves sending a bolt through the animals skull. That causes suffering BEFORE unconscious. Just as much if not more than a proper Jewish slaughter. There's other reasons this is a "so what", but that's enough. You're whole argument is based on assumptions and lack of attention to detail.



That doesn't need refuting because RESEARCH SHOWS the same is accomplished with Jewish ritual slaughter.

YOU have not been able to refute that the animal suffers as the bolt is going through their skull and brain BEFORE they are unconscious.


Nope. That is not what the data shows. The data shows that the proper knife and proper method is better.



So..... it sounds like you found kosher slaughter-house videos, but you're not bringing them because they prove you wrong. And all you have is.... "But I can't find many videos so there MUST be a problem." Nope. There's simply much-much less of these slaughter houses. So the quantity of videos you'll find will naturally be much-much less.

It's a simple correlation.

What you keep missing is the volume of observations made by the animal rights activist. 3000+ observations, 98% success cannot be faked. That kind of consistency means the method works. And observing 3 different slaughter house shows that the method is not unique to the one individual or slaughter house.



well, we don't have many active Muslim members anymore. And the topic is Jewish ritual slaughter. And their method is completely different, much less restrictive on what and how they do it.

The source I brought, which you ignored, observed them hacking repeatedly at the neck of the animal. That's like night and day compared to Jewish ritual slaughter. AND your own sources ignored the difference, made claims about Jewish ritual slaughter from observing two Halal slaughter houses.

Again, this shows you don't check your own sources for accuracy. Details... details are the difference between an animal suffering or not. Details are the difference between making a true claim and a false assumption. You just can't get the details right, and you just keep making false assumptions.

When you learn how to have a proper debate or discussion then we can go on. Until then when you excessively break up posts, which I have noticed that others have pointed out to you,, you are just showing that you cannot deal with the topic being discussed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Subduction Zone, I don't understand what the confusion is. I've checked out the same sources that @dybmh provided (both governmental and Australia's Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) and they confirm that both halal slaughter (under Islam) and kosher slaughter (under Judaism) are permitted. Stunning the animal is not a requirement for either method in Australia.

As for the higher price for kosher-certified meat that I mentioned in my previous post... Perhaps that's a good thing. I find myself consuming less meat for that very reason. Less consumption of meat by more people can have positive effects on the overall environment, as well.

You need to look more deeply. The one source that he linked and referred to refutes that claim, at least for cattle. Cattle have to be stunned immediately following the cut in Australia. For sheep and goats stunning must be available if the animal shows any difficulties at all. Please note the strawman that @dybmh has had to use. He has tried to change the argument to stunning before the cut. Because apparently consciousness continues after the cut. He tends to ignore or not understand the parts of his sources that refute his claims:

What is Kosher and Halal slaughter in Australia? – RSPCA Knowledgebase

"Exemptions from pre-slaughter stunning requirements
A small number of abattoirs and poultry processors in Australia have been granted ongoing permission from their relevant state or territory authority to conduct religious slaughter without prior stunning – to produce either Halal or Kosher meat. This exemption to the requirement for pre-slaughter stunning is permitted under the current Australian standards for the hygienic production and transportation of meat and meat products for human consumption (AS 4696:2007) and Australian standard for construction of premises and hygienic production of poultry meat for human consumption (AS 4465:2005).

Our understanding (as of 2020) is that there are 9 abattoirs and poultry processors in Australia with approval to conduct slaughter without prior stunning:

• New South Wales – 2 abattoirs
• South Australia – 3 abattoirs
• Victoria – 4 abattoirs

The requirements for religious slaughter without prior stunning of cattle, sheep and goats are set out in a national guideline. The Meat Standards Committee Guideline MSC 01/2004 Ritual slaughter for ovine (sheep) and bovine (cattle) states:

• For cattle, stunning is required but occurs immediately after the throat is cut. This requires two slaughtermen to be present, one to perform the cut and one to perform the stunning. The animal must be restrained (including head restraint) in a manner that ensures it remains standing in an upright position during the slaughter process.
• For sheep and goats, stunning is not required unless the animal is distressed or does not rapidly lose consciousness, in which case they must be immediately stunned.

The requirements differ because cattle have a different blood supply to the brain meaning they may take longer to lose consciousness than sheep and goats."

No one is saying that the religious have to totally drop their standards. They must merely adopt at least parts of methods that are more humane.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Yes, they are more expensive. I never denied that. But it appears that they would be even more expensive if they followed true kosher standards. My opponent tried to use a No True Scotsman claim. But the problem with that is that it puts the burden of proof upon him, and he never supported that. He would have to show that all kosher butchers followed those standards, where videos of suppliers of kosher beef showed that they do not.

@Subduction Zone, you speak about "true kosher standards." Are you a rabbi versed in halacha, that you know precisely what those "true kosher standards" are?

I'm not going to get dragged into your debate as to what are or are not "true kosher standards." I don't think that you entirely understand what is and is not permissible in Judaism -- and that's all right. No one should expect you to.

 

[dybmh]

But it appears that they would be even more expensive if they followed true kosher standards.

You don't know whether the standards are followd or not.

My opponent tried to use a No True Scotsman claim.

No, I didn't. You have demonstrated you don't know the standards, can't tell the difference between Halal and kosher, judge based on youtubes without knowing where they're actually coming from. And I brought you the standards, which you probably never read. I'm pretty sure your own source ( which proved you wrong ) had those same standards.

It' not no-true-scotsman unless I'm changing the standard. And, I'm not.

 

[dybmh]

But the problem with that is that it puts the burden of proof upon him, and he never supported that.

I sure did. I brought the kosher standard. You simply ignore.. the whole debate you make claims and ignore the evidence brought. You are well known for this. Along with complaining about formatting, and breaking up your posts, and "oh, oh, it's too long, I'm on my tablet...."

He would have to show that all kosher butchers followed those standards,

And I did. From Dr. Grandin a well known animal rights activist. Here it is again:

where videos of suppliers of kosher beef showed that they do not.

And there it is, just keep repeating it... "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

You haven't brought any of the videos. I have repeatedly challenged you to put your money where your mouth is IF you can tell us the date, the location, and the name of the slaughter-house.

You haven't because, as soon as you do, it will be exposed that YOU ARE MAKING THIS STUFF UP.

I went myself and looked for videos, and what I saw doesn't look like Jewish ritual slaughter. I couldn't confirm where the video came from, or when he video was taken.

You don't have proof, SubD, just story telling. And considering how wrong you're been, not just in this tread. You have a pattern of doing this. And not just you, most bible critics that show up here have this same pattern. They don't check the facts. They say stuff, and can't back it up, and what they say doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

BRING these videos, plural. Bring them instead of just talking about them. Put them in a spoiler, include the date, the location, and the name of the slaughter-house.

Can you do it, or not?

 

[dybmh]

AS 4696:2007) and Australian standard for construction of premises and hygienic production of poultry meat for human consumption (AS 4465:2005).

Our understanding (as of 2020) is that there are 9 abattoirs and poultry processors in Australia with approval to conduct slaughter without prior stunning:

• New South Wales – 2 abattoirs
• South Australia – 3 abattoirs
• Victoria – 4 abattoirs

There ya go...

The requirements for religious slaughter without prior stunning of cattle, sheep and goats are set out in a national guideline. The Meat Standards Committee Guideline MSC 01/2004 Ritual slaughter for ovine (sheep) and bovine (cattle) states:

This is from 2004 and cannot be located on the Australian government's website. I can't find the document posted anywhere.

Please note the strawman that @dybmh has had to use. He has tried to change the argument to stunning before the cut. Because apparently consciousness continues after the cut. He tends to ignore or not understand the parts of his sources that refute his claims:

Nope.... more complete misrepresentation. Jewish ritual slaughter renders the animal unconcious immediately. The animal doesn't know it's neck is being slit.

I have repeated this so many times. And I've brought actual evidence for this. The only thing you brought was data about Halal slaughter.

My sources confirm this with NO refutations included in the source.

And I don't care how many times you post these false statements, I will continue to counter them. Again and again. it takes 2 seconds to post the screenshot.

What is Kosher and Halal slaughter in Australia? – RSPCA Knowledgebase
"Exemptions from pre-slaughter stunning requirements

Not a government website. What I brought IS *actually* from the Austarlian government. Since it's not on there, you're probably looking at OLD data, and i could be a misquote and cherry picked.

The actual standard is here, and it's direct from the Australian government website.

 

[dybmh]

When you learn how to have a proper debate or discussion then we can go on. Until then when you excessively break up posts, which I have noticed that others have pointed out to you,, you are just showing that you cannot deal with the topic being discussed.

No one else complains about "excessive breaking up of posts". That's baloney. You complain about formatting, but cannot bring facts. If that's your limitation, and you don't like it. Limit your own posts to 1 or 2 sentences. Try to make 1 point, 1 actual point. Then you will not have to deal with the sentence by sentence rebuttal. Try not making false claims repeatedly, and the problem dissappears.

You've been wrong repeatedly in this thread. And you're wrong about this Australia thing too. They permit, actual Jewish ritual slaughter of all cattle. That's what an abattoir means. There's a few in Australia who have rec'd permission to slaughter without stunning. But they must be prepared to stun if something goes wrong. That's it. Unless you can bring something from the Australian government that says otherwise, you, again failed. SubD ASSUMED ---> SubD FAILED.

 

[dybmh]

He tends to ignore or not understand the parts of his sources that refute his claims:

What is Kosher and Halal slaughter in Australia? – RSPCA Knowledgebase

the absolute unbrindled IRONY!

Your own source has this in it, following the part you copy/pasted. Again... after the part you read. After the part you posted. It confirms:

Dude. YOUR own source proves YOU wrong again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Subduction Zone, you speak about "true kosher standards." Are you a rabbi versed in halacha, that you know precisely what those "true kosher standards" are?

I'm not going to get dragged into your debate as to what are or are not "true kosher standards." I don't think that you entirely understand what is and is not permissible in Judaism -- and that's all right. No one should expect you to.

You misunderstood my point. There are sellers of kosher meats, HUGE ones, that have videos of there operations that do not match the claimed standards of @dybmh . Plus, even when one follows those standards preslaughter stunning is still more humane. Australia has a reasonable compromise. For cattle at least, they need immediate post cutting stunning.

I do not really care if they are "true kosher standards" or not. But the fact is that many kosher meats do not appear to meet the qualifications that @dybmh claimed. How as a consumer could you tell the difference? But at any rate his argument has been shown to be a Red Herring since3 even proper kosher slaughter, of cattle at the very least, is less humane than stunning.

 

[Subduction Zone]

the absolute unbrindled IRONY!

Your own source has this in it, following the part you copy/pasted. Again... after the part you read. After the part you posted. It confirms:

View attachment 78600

Dude. YOUR own source proves YOU wrong again.

LMAO! You are still using your strawman argument. never said that prior stunning was required. I told you time and time again that unstunned butchery was banned in Australia.

When you have to use strawman arguments it is obvious to everyone that even you know that you are wrong.

smh

 

[dybmh]

You misunderstood my point. There are sellers of kosher meats, HUGE ones, that have videos of there operations that do not match the claimed standards of @dybmh . Plus, even when one follows those standards preslaughter stunning is still more humane. Australia has a reasonable compromise. For cattle at least, they need immediate post cutting stunning.

Not that I found. You don't you bring these videos? Or is this another one of your false assumptions. Or perhaps it is actually.. really, just completely dishonest?

Bring the videos in a spoiler, give the date, the location, and the name of the slaughter house.

I do not really care if they are "true kosher standards" or not. But the fact is that many kosher meats do not appear to meet the qualifications that @dybmh claimed. How as a consumer could you tell the difference? But at any rate his argument has been shown to be a Red Herring since3 even proper kosher slaughter, of cattle at the very least, is less humane than stunning.

BRING THE VIDEOS IN A SPOILER THE DATE THE LOCATION AND THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTER-HOUSE.

 

[dybmh]

LMAO! You are still using your strawman argument. never said that prior stunning was required. I told you time and time again that unstunned butchery was banned in Australia.

You just contradicted yourself.

Yes you are saying that. Hello????

"Unstunned butchery is banned" = "prior stunning is required."

Wow dude. Just wow. No wonder, you keep losing. You can barely speak and understand english.

When you have to use strawman arguments it is obvious to everyone that even you know that you are wrong.

When you cannot even quote your own sources, and everyone can see you making up stuff. And making claims about videos, but never producing them...

It's obvious you have nothing. And your comments are worthless.

There are sellers of kosher meats, HUGE ones, that have videos of there operations that do not match the claimed standards of @dybmh

BRING THE VIDEOS, GIVE THE DATE THE LOCATION AND THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

 

[dybmh]

never said that prior stunning was required.

That is a contradiction.

I told you time and time again that unstunned butchery was banned in Australia.

unstunned butchery = prior stunning required

wake up... wake up.... it's 5PM PST.

 

[dybmh]

@Subduction Zone ,

This is the law, from the Australian govenment's website:

​

An animal that is stuck without first being stunned and is not rendered​

unconscious as part of its ritual slaughter is stunned without delay after it is stuck to ensure it is rendered unconscious.​

Try to understand. If the slaughter is unsuccessful then the animal is stunned.

That means they are OK with the knife on the throat without stunning.

Got it?

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

You misunderstood my point. There are sellers of kosher meats, HUGE ones, that have videos of there operations that do not match the claimed standards of @dybmh . Plus, even when one follows those standards preslaughter stunning is still more humane. Australia has a reasonable compromise. For cattle at least, they need immediate post cutting stunning.

I do not really care if they are "true kosher standards" or not. But the fact is that many kosher meats do not appear to meet the qualifications that @dybmh claimed. How as a consumer could you tell the difference? But at any rate his argument has been shown to be a Red Herring since3 even proper kosher slaughter, of cattle at the very least, is less humane than stunning.

SZ, you need to provide more information as to who these "HUGE ones" are. To answer your question: "How as a consumer could you tell the difference?" Not only the packaging, but also the premises that sell kosher meat (including kosher restaurants) will have a certificate of authenticity for their establishment, issued by a kosher-certifying agency and generally available to public view. (I have seen the displayed kosher certificate for Ben's Kosher Restaurants here in New York.) Processed foods will have what is called a "hechsher" symbol on their packaging. This tells us which kosher certification agency is responsible for insuring that the product is kosher. As I told you already, there are penalties for fraud in New York State, and those who would sell kosher products are regularly checked.

I'm not even going to ask why you are so focused on Jewish practice in your attempt to prove "cruelty," yet apparently not nearly as dismayed by the secular and common (in Australia) practice of muelsing live lambs, or the Islamic practice of slaughter (which doesn't appear to me to vary that much from the Jewish practice).

Your argument with @dybmh has taken on a circular quality in your persistence, and a few postings back you first addressed me in one of your postings by complaining about @dybmh. I think that perhaps you should stick to your argument with @dybmh (if that's what you both enjoy doing -- I personally don't get it and it seems a waste of time to me), and please don't disparage him (or anyone else, really) to me. I'm not interested.

 

[dybmh]

Islamic practice of slaughter (which doesn't appear to me to vary that much from the Jewish practice).

It is quite different. Different knife, no requirement for sharpness, and virtually no requirements on how the cut is made, or where. Could be one jugular, could be two...

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is quite different. Different knife, no requirement for sharpness, and virtually no requirements on how the cut is made, or where. Could be one jugular, could be two...

That may or may not be true. I would like to hear from a Muslim on this.

 

[Subduction Zone]

SZ, you need to provide more information as to who these "HUGE ones" are. To answer your question: "How as a consumer could you tell the difference?" Not only the packaging, but also the premises that sell kosher meat (including kosher restaurants) will have a certificate of authenticity for their establishment, issued by a kosher-certifying agency and generally available to public view. (I have seen the displayed kosher certificate for Ben's Kosher Restaurants here in New York.) Processed foods will have what is called a "hechsher" symbol on their packaging. This tells us which kosher certification agency is responsible for insuring that the product is kosher. As I told you already, there are penalties for fraud in New York State, and those who would sell kosher products are regularly checked.

I'm not even going to ask why you are so focused on Jewish practice in your attempt to prove "cruelty," yet apparently not nearly as dismayed by the secular and common (in Australia) practice of muelsing live lambs, or the Islamic practice of slaughter (which doesn't appear to me to vary that much from the Jewish practice).

Your argument with @dybmh has taken on a circular quality in your persistence, and a few postings back you first addressed me in one of your postings by complaining about @dybmh. I think that perhaps you should stick to your argument with @dybmh (if that's what you both enjoy doing -- I personally don't get it and it seems a waste of time to me), and please don't disparage him (or anyone else, really) to me. I'm not interested.

I provided evidence and links earlier in the discussion. As to my claim about Australia didn't you read and follow the links? Stunning has to be done immediately after the cut in Australia. I have no problem with that. They do not allow unstunned slaughter. I have as of yet to see @dybmh own up to his error.

For quite some time PETA has been after the kosher butchers in Uruguay. They export a lot of "kosher" beef to both Israel and the US:

It is also rather difficult for US regulating agencies to monitor slaughter done in other countries. And the data that I posted earlier and the data that he posted earlier showed that stunning is the more humane method of slaughter. Unconsciousness is almost instantaneous when done properly. That is never true of kosher slaughter of cattle.

Kosher Slaughter in South America | PETA

Footage of kosher slaughter from Uruguay reveals extreme cruelty to cattle. Uruguay is the number one exporter of kosher meat to both the United States and Israel.

www.peta.org

I could post links to various videos of kosher slaughter, but I really do not feel like doing so again. They are not pretty.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Subduction Zone ,

This is the law, from the Australian govenment's website:

​

An animal that is stuck without first being stunned and is not rendered​

unconscious as part of its ritual slaughter is stunned without delay after it is stuck to ensure it is rendered unconscious.​

Try to understand. If the slaughter is unsuccessful then the animal is stunned.

That means they are OK with the knife on the throat without stunning.

Got it?

Wow! Even when I copy and paste and link an article from the ARSPCA you still ignore it. Reread my post. When it comes to cattle they are always stunned after the cut. That means that when it comes to cattle there is no slaughter without stunning.

Got it?

 

[dybmh]

That may or may not be true. I would like to hear from a Muslim on this.

It's in your own source. I quoted it before. At the very least, that was what was observed.