Animal sacrifice: out of fashion

[dybmh]

I provided evidence and links earlier in the discussion. As to my claim about Australia didn't you read and follow the links?

Nope, your evidence either supported my claims. Or they were talking about Halal slaughterhouses, and never observed kosher lsuaghter, or were completely irrelevant talking about hypetension.

The most recent link does not relfect what is on the Austalian governments website.

Stunning has to be done immediately after the cut in Australia.

Nope, only IF the ritual slaughter does not result in unconsiousness. Direct fromt he Austrailian government website. Your source has something from 2004 which is not posted on the government's website and cannot be confirmed.

I have no problem with that. They do not allow unstunned slaughter. I have as of yet to see @dybmh own up to his error.

It's not an error. I brought the actual policy, you brought some thid party activist group.

For quite some time PETA has been after the kosher butchers in Uruguay. They export a lot of "kosher" beef to both Israel and the US:

Until you bring some current complaints from Peta or anyone about an actual kosher laughter house, there's no reason to believe anything you say about anyting. You've been consistently wrong.

It is also rather difficult for US regulating agencies to monitor slaughter done in other countries. And the data that I posted earlier and the data that he posted earlier showed that stunning is the more humane method of slaughter. Unconsciousness is almost instantaneous when done properly. That is never true of kosher slaughter of cattle.

Nope. It showed the opposite. This is your own source:

Kosher Slaughter in South America | PETA

Footage of kosher slaughter from Uruguay reveals extreme cruelty to cattle. Uruguay is the number one exporter of kosher meat to both the United States and Israel.

www.peta.org

Lets see.... when was this taken, where, and what is the name of the slaughter house?

I could post links to various videos of kosher slaughter, but I really do not feel like doing so again. They are not pretty.

You NEVER posted any videos. This is the first one.

WHEN WAS THIS TAKEN WHERE AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE?

 

[dybmh]

Wow! Even when I copy and paste and link an article from the ARSPCA you still ignore it. Reread my post. When it comes to cattle they are always stunned after the cut. That means that when it comes to cattle there is no slaughter without stunning.

Got it?

Nope. You're wrong. This is what your source says: I did read it, YOU didn't.

And this is what the actual policy is from the Australian government.

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

Notice the .GOV url. The ARSPCA doesn't set policy. The government does.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's in your own source. I quoted it before. At the very least, that was what was observed.

And I never claimed that it was perfect. That source was used to show that your claims about kosher butchery was wrong. I was not arguing about banning halal butchery, they are adapting to the times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope, your evidence either supported my claims. Or they were talking about Halal slaughterhouses, and never observed kosher lsuaghter, or were completely irrelevant talking about hypetension.

The most recent link does not relfect what is on the Austalian governments website.



Nope, only IF the ritual slaughter does not result in unconsiousness. Direct fromt he Austrailian government website. Your source has something from 2004 which is not posted on the government's website and cannot be confirmed.

View attachment 78605



It's not an error. I brought the actual policy, you brought some thid party activist group.



Until you bring some current complaints from Peta or anyone about an actual kosher laughter house, there's no reason to believe anything you say about anyting. You've been consistently wrong.



Nope. It showed the opposite. This is your own source:

View attachment 78606





Lets see.... when was this taken, where, and what is the name of the slaughter house?



You NEVER posted any videos. This is the first one.

WHEN WAS THIS TAKEN WHERE AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE?

I posted a totally different one a long time ago of an Uruguayan kosher slaughterhouse. If you did not pay attention that is not my problem.

And you still don't get it. you keep referring to "prior stunning" in Australia. That was not the topic. With cattle your own source said that at kosher slaughterhouses all cows have to be stunned after sticking.

Do you want me to quote from them again? Why do you have to rely on such obvious strawman arguments?

 

[Subduction Zone]

@dybmh , you need to supply working links to your quotes since you quote mine and do not seem to understand your own sources.

 

[dybmh]

And I never claimed that it was perfect. That source was used to show that your claims about kosher butchery was wrong. I was not arguing about banning halal butchery, they are adapting to the times.

But since they never observed a kosher slaughter house... that makes he source irrelevant to kosher anything.

 

[dybmh]

I posted a totally different one a long time ago of an Uruguayan kosher slaughterhouse. If you did not pay attention that is not my problem.

No, you didn't.

And you still don't get it. you keep referring to "prior stunning" in Australia. That was not the topic. With cattle your own source said that at kosher slaughterhouses all cows have to be stunned after sticking.

No it doesn't. It says IF they are not unconscious as part of the slaughter.

An animal that is stuck without first being stunned and is not rendered unconscious as part of its ritual slaughter is stunned without delay after it is stuck to ensure it is rendered unconscious.

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

Do you want me to quote from them again? Why do you have to rely on such obvious strawman arguments?

The Australian government sets policy and laws for the country. If you want to find a source from them. Yes. Otherwise some source from 2004, on an activist website does not overule current policy from the government that is dated 2007.

AND WHEN WAS THE VIDEO TAKEN, WHERE WAS IT TAKEN, AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

When I click on the link ZERO info was given. As I suspected. It could come from anywhere. Kosher, non-kosher... anywhere. Someone sent them a video, and they posted it. It doesn't prove anything except, you don't confirm your sources.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But since they never observed a kosher slaughter house... that makes he source irrelevant to kosher anything.

But they did. The meat produced was duly labeled "kosher". They were a big exporter to Israel, I am not sure f they still are. You are back to using your No True Scotsman fallacy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, you didn't.



No it doesn't. It says IF they are not unconscious as part of the slaughter.

An animal that is stuck without first being stunned and is not rendered unconscious as part of its ritual slaughter is stunned without delay after it is stuck to ensure it is rendered unconscious.

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

The Australian government sets policy and laws for the country. If you want to find a source from them. Yes. Otherwise some source from 2004, on an activist website does not overule current policy from the government that is dated 2007.

AND WHEN WAS THE VIDEO TAKEN, WHERE WAS IT TAKEN, AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

When I click on the link ZERO info was given. As I suspected. It could come from anywhere. Kosher, non-kosher... anywhere. Someone sent them a video, and they posted it. It doesn't prove anything except, you don't confirm your sources.

I see that you still do have not been able to properly link your claims.

And you do not seem to understand the compromise. Cattle are still all stunned, according to the source that you first used. They are stunned immediately after the cut. I can quote and link if you need me to.

 

[dybmh]

@dybmh , you need to supply working links to your quotes since you quote mine and do not seem to understand your own sources.

WHERE, WHEN, AND WHAT SLAUGHTERHOUSE IS SHOWN IN THE VIDEO?

Until you provide that info... no complaints are valid.

But...

The link is right there in the post.

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

There it is again.

You want the link for the evidence that ritual kosher slaughter is virtually harmless?

Eventhough it's right in front of you? OK... here it is:

Pros and cons of different stunning methods from a Halal perspective: a review

There has always been a debate about the acceptability of stunning methods for preparing Halal slaughtered meat. Throughout the last few decades, stunning methods have become acceptable for Halal slaughtering due to an increasing majority of Muslim countries ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[dybmh]

But they did. The meat produced was duly labeled "kosher". They were a big exporter to Israel, I am not sure f they still are. You are back to using your No True Scotsman fallacy.

Nope, not true. The research you posted only observed Halal butchers. You're confusing your sources.

And no actual kosher label says "kosher". As Rachel pointed out, it needs an actual hechsher. So, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

WHERE DID THE VIDEO COME FROM? WHEN WAS IT MADE? WHICH SLAUGHTER HOUSE?

 

[Subduction Zone]

WHERE, WHEN, AND WHAT SLAUGHTERHOUSE IS SHOWN IN THE VIDEO?

Until you provide that info... no complaints are valid.

But...

The link is right there in the post.

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

There it is again.

You want the link for the evidence that ritual kosher slaughter is virtually harmless?

Eventhough it's right in front of you? OK... here it is:

Pros and cons of different stunning methods from a Halal perspective: a review

There has always been a debate about the acceptability of stunning methods for preparing Halal slaughtered meat. Throughout the last few decades, stunning methods have become acceptable for Halal slaughtering due to an increasing majority of Muslim countries ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 78610

The link does not go to your quote. And videos have shown that the claims about animals not noticing the cut are bogus.

You should be asking yourself if the claims of Jewish slaughterhouses are true why is it so hard to get videos of the process?

Nope, not true. The research you posted only observed Halal butchers. You're confusing your sources.

And no actual kosher label says "kosher". As Rachel pointed out, it needs an actual hechsher. So, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

WHERE DID THE VIDEO COME FROM? WHEN WAS IT MADE? WHICH SLAUGHTER HOUSE?

Now you are playing silly word games. It was good enough to be sold in Israel as kosher beef.

 

[dybmh]

I see that you still do have not been able to properly link your claims.

You're standards are garbage. Why do I care, or anyone cares about what you think is proper?

WHERE DID THE VIDEO COME FROM? WHEN WAS IT RECORDED? WHICH SLAUGHTERHOUSE?

And you do not seem to understand the compromise. Cattle are still all stunned, according to the source that you first used. They are stunned immediately after the cut. I can quote and link if you need me to.

NO, they're not ALL STUNNED. The Government policy is IF they animal is not unconscious. IF. IF. IF. IF.

IF IT IS NOT UNCONSCIOUS THEN THE STUNNING IS AVAILABLE.

IF IT IS UNCONSCIOUS THEY DO NOT STUN IT AGAIN.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

THEY STUN AN ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS ANIMAL?

Here is the Ausralian Government website:

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

Here is the policy:

An animal that is stuck without first being stunned and is not rendered unconscious as part of its ritual slaughter is stunned without delay after it is stuck to ensure it is rendered unconscious.​

It is policy number 7.12 on page 22. The first link on the page on the Australian Government's website. Policy AS4696-2007.

Right here:

 

[dybmh]

The link does not go to your quote.

That's because it's a PDF. I already told you. It's the first link. I gave you the name of the document.

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

And videos have shown that the claims about animals not noticing the cut are bogus.

WHERE IS THE VIDEO FROM? WHEN WAS IT TAKEN? WHICH SLAUGHTERHOUSE IS IT?

If you can't confirm any of this then it's irrelevant

I looked for the info... it's not available...

All you can say is "Peta says it's from a kosher slaughter house. Someone sent them the video. It's from 2010 based on the last frames of the video."

That's it. Someone is claiming something. But there's no way to tell who or what you're seeing.

And that's why when you first started this whole "but the youtubes, but the youtubes..." I told you, I watched them. They don't look kosher to me. I don't see any of the indications that it would be kosher slaughter.

There's no supervision
There's no checking the knife
There's no washing its neck
There's no checking the wound

It doesn't look kosher.

How do we know this is actually from a kosher slaughter house?

You should be asking yourself if the claims of Jewish slaughterhouses are true why is it so hard to get videos of the process?

I did, and the answer is, I don't know. But that doesn't mean some random video that claims it's a kosher slaughterhouse is actually a kosher slaughter house.

Now you are playing silly word games. It was good enough to be sold in Israel as kosher beef.

No. You don't know what slaughterhouse the video is showing. YOU don't know what you're looking at. You have no idea if the meat went to Israel or went to locals.

WHERE DID THE VIDEO COME FROM?
WHEN WAS IT RECORDED?
WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're standards are garbage. Why do I care, or anyone cares about what you think is proper?

WHERE DID THE VIDEO COME FROM? WHEN WAS IT RECORDED? WHICH SLAUGHTERHOUSE?



NO, they're not ALL STUNNED. The Government policy is IF they animal is not unconscious. IF. IF. IF. IF.

IF IT IS NOT UNCONSCIOUS THEN THE STUNNING IS AVAILABLE.

IF IT IS UNCONSCIOUS THEY DO NOT STUN IT AGAIN.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

THEY STUN AN ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS ANIMAL?

Here is the Ausralian Government website:

Australian Standards and Guidelines

www.primesafe.vic.gov.au

Here is the policy:

An animal that is stuck without first being stunned and is not rendered unconscious as part of its ritual slaughter is stunned without delay after it is stuck to ensure it is rendered unconscious.​

It is policy number 7.12 on page 22. The first link on the page on the Australian Government's website. Policy AS4696-2007.

Right here:

View attachment 78611

That is the website, but once again you have shown difficulties in understanding how your own sources show you to be wrong. In the case of the RASPCA the claim is that all cattle undergo stunning after the cut. You kept referring to "prior stunning" even though no one was arguing that. It took at least five times for you to begin to see that error.

What is Kosher and Halal slaughter in Australia? – RSPCA Knowledgebase

Here is the quote from them that refutes your claims:

"
The requirements for religious slaughter without prior stunning of cattle, sheep and goats are set out in a national guideline. The Meat Standards Committee Guideline MSC 01/2004 Ritual slaughter for ovine (sheep) and bovine (cattle) states:

• For cattle, stunning is required but occurs immediately after the throat is cut. This requires two slaughtermen to be present, one to perform the cut and one to perform the stunning. The animal must be restrained (including head restraint) in a manner that ensures it remains standing in an upright position during the slaughter process."

Did you see that cattle are to be stunned immediately after the cut? The only way to do an immediate stun is to have the machinery set up before the cut.

Now as to the article that you linked you put the wrong part in bold. An animal that is not rendered unconscious by the cut, and cows are not, they can keep conscious up to two minutes after the cut, they are to be "stunned without delay".. You are misinterpreting a line.

The failures of various slaughterhouses is enough to put the burden of proof on the kosher slaughterhouse. Where are their videos? I can show you videos of stunning where the animal just drops. I doubt if you can show that with mature beef cows.

The difference that you see in the two accounts is explained by the dates of the items. That law is from 2011. But the RSPCA post is how it is interpreted after it was written. It was from 2020 which means that is how the law is interpreted today.

 

[dybmh]

That is the website, but once again you have shown difficulties in understanding how your own sources show you to be wrong. In the case of the RASPCA the claim is that all cattle undergo stunning after the cut.

The RASPCA? They're not the government. They don't make the policy. They are an activist group. They can make a claim, but if they're claim doesn't match what's on the government's website, A link to the governement website defeats the claim, as well as common sense. This is from the government website:

You kept referring to "prior stunning" even though no one was arguing that. It took at least five times for you to begin to see that error.

They don't stun an animal that is rendered unconscious AS PART OF THE RITUAL SLAUGHTER.

What is Kosher and Halal slaughter in Australia? – RSPCA Knowledgebase

Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.

Here is the quote from them that refutes your claims:

Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.

The requirements for religious slaughter without prior stunning of cattle, sheep and goats are set out in a national guideline. The Meat Standards Committee Guideline MSC 01/2004 Ritual slaughter for ovine (sheep) and bovine (cattle) states:

Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.

For cattle, stunning is required but occurs immediately after the throat is cut. This requires two slaughtermen to be present, one to perform the cut and one to perform the stunning. The animal must be restrained (including head restraint) in a manner that ensures it remains standing in an upright position during the slaughter process."

Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.

Did you see that cattle are to be stunned immediately after the cut? The only way to do an immediate stun is to have the machinery set up before the cut.

Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.

Now as to the article that you linked you put the wrong part in bold. An animal that is not rendered unconscious by the cut,
and cows are not,

Yes they are. Immediate unconscious 95% of the time. 3000+ observations.

they can keep conscious up to two minutes after the cut, they are to be "stunned without delay"..

So what? They can... but they also cannot.

When it doesn't happen THEY DON'T STUN IT.

IF IT'S ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS THEY DON'T STUN IT.

You are misinterpreting a line.

No.

The failures of various slaughterhouses is enough to put the burden of proof on the kosher slaughterhouse. Where are their videos? I can show you videos of stunning where the animal just drops. I doubt if you can show that with mature beef cows.

No. There was 1 slaughterhouse that was criminal top to bottom. But even that one got a passing grade from Dr. Grandin. The short and quick of it is... 2004 investigations showed it was a horrible operation. 2006 Dr. Grandin came in and said it was OK. 2008 it was a disaster again. Further investiagtions showed massive corruption throughout the company. In other words, it was run by a bunch of criminals. And the CEO went to jail. The place got shut down and sold. I have no idea if it's still kosher.

1 company with criminal management. That is not a reason to put any burden on an entire group, when, AGAIN. Dr. Granding the animal rights activist visted 3 different kosher slaughter houses. And found 98% success, and the animals didn't seem to know they were being slaughtered.

1 bad slaughter-house vs. 3 good slaughterhouses = no burden / the method is not inhumane

The difference that you see in the two accounts is explained by the dates of the items. That law is from 2011. But the RSPCA post is how it is interpreted after it was written. It was from 2020 which means that is how the law is interpreted today.

No... they do not set policy. They are quoting a document from 2004. It's not even on the government's website anymore.


Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.


Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.

---

WHERE WAS THE VIDEO FROM THAT YOU POSTED?
WHEN WAS IT RECORDED?
WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE?

HOW DO YOU EVEN KNOW IT IS KOSHER?
WHAT ABOUT THAT COMMENT ABOUT A KOSHER LABEL? WHAT KOSHER LABEL?
WHAT ABOUT THAT COMMENT ABOUT EXPORT TO ISRAEL? WHAT EXPORT?
IF YOU DON"T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE VIDEO, HOW CAN MAKE ANY CLAIMS ABOUT IT?
WHY SHOULD ANYONE TRUST YOU IF YOUR STANDARDS ARE SO POOR?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The RASPCA? They're not the government. They don't make the policy. They are an activist group. They can make a claim, but if they're claim doesn't match what's on the government's website, A link to the governement website defeats the claim, as well as common sense. This is from the government website:

View attachment 78614



They don't stun an animal that is rendered unconscious AS PART OF THE RITUAL SLAUGHTER.



Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.



Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.



Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.



Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.



Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.



Yes they are. Immediate unconscious 98% of the time. 3000+ observations.



So what? They can... but they also cannot.

When it doesn't happen THEY DON'T STUN IT.

IF IT'S ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS THEY DON'T STUN IT.



No.



No. There was 1 slaughterhouse that was criminal top to bottom. But even that one got a passing grade from Dr. Grandin. The short and quick of it is... 2004 investigations showed it was a horrible operation. 2006 Dr. Grandin came in and said it was OK. 2008 it was a disaster again. Further investiagtions showed massive corruption throughout the company. In other words, it was run by a bunch of criminals. And the CEO went to jail. The place got shut down and sold. I have no idea if it's still kosher.

1 company with criminal management. That is not a reason to put any burden on an entire group, when, AGAIN. Dr. Granding the animal rights activist visted 3 different kosher slaughter houses. And found 98% success, and the animals didn't seem to know they were being slaughtered.

1 bad slaughter-house vs. 3 good slaughterhouses = no burden / the method is not inhumane



No... they do not set policy. They are quoting a document from 2004. It's not even on the government's website anymore.


Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.


Not a government website. Not an official source on policy.
That document is from 2004. It's not on the government website anymore, if it ever was there in the first place.

---

WHERE WAS THE VIDEO FROM THAT YOU POSTED?
WHEN WAS IT RECORDED?
WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE?

HOW DO YOU EVEN KNOW IT IS KOSHER?
WHAT ABOUT THAT COMMENT ABOUT A KOSHER LABEL? WHAT KOSHER LABEL?
WHAT ABOUT THAT COMMENT ABOUT EXPORT TO ISRAEL? WHAT EXPORT?
IF YOU DON"T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE VIDEO, HOW CAN MAKE ANY CLAIMS ABOUT IT?
WHY SHOULD ANYONE TRUST YOU IF YOUR STANDARDS ARE SO POOR?

There you go hack to your old mistakes. You don't get to make demands until you clean up your debating style.

The RSPCA is not the government, but they are far more likely to understand how the laws of Australia are interpreted than you or I. They refer to that law and are aware of it. They explain why cattle are always stunned after the cut. Did you forget that already? That is why the policy, which is how laws are interpreted, is to always stun cattle after the cut.

 

[JDMS]

@dybmh @Subduction Zone I have no idea how you guys are still going after almost a month! I've been watching this whole time and only just realized how long it's been...

 

[Subduction Zone]

@dybmh @Subduction Zone I have no idea how you guys are still going after almost a month! I've been watching this whole time and only just realized how long it's been...

Me either. I laid off for a while to see if he could cool off a bit. It didn't work. I don't understand why he has to stick with an outdated and now immoral method of slaughter. In the past it was probably more humane than other methods. But technology has improved on that. Australia even has a reasonable compromise. It combines both methods, but he has to deny that happens, even though I got that claim from a site that he first posted.

 

[VoidCat]

@dybmh @Subduction Zone I have no idea how you guys are still going after almost a month! I've been watching this whole time and only just realized how long it's been...

I've been watching too. Its been entertaining. I've been keeping my opinions on this debate to myself because im not that knowledgable on the topic of kosher slaughter however I have learned a bit about kosher slaughter from this debate and what exactly is required for a slaughter to be kosher. I didn't even know they used a special knife. That's interesting.