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Animal sacrifice: out of fashion

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Assuming, sharp, clean tools are not always used.

However with a sharp knife and a clean cut up to 15 seconds.
I don't know that much about Islam (do you?) but I do know something about Judaism. And I know that very little pain is imposed on an animal because the knife yes, by religious decree, has to be very sharp. And it is not stabbed all over to inflict pain. @dybmh explained it properly to you to the best of my knowledge. Many humans eat animal flesh. Or use leather, etc.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You did more than that. You called him lazy. Classic projection.
I will have to side with @ChristineM on this one. Such videos are very disturbing to her. I can understand that. She told you how to find them. Instead you demanded that she do something that she told you was offensive to her.

Now I grew up on a farm. I have hunted for my own meat. So I am not so upset by those videos. If you still want to see videos of halal or kosher butchery I could find them for you. Stunning is not perfect either, but here is the important part, it does lower the odds of a botched painful death. I am sure that one could find stunning videos that went wrong too. The problem with both kosher and halal butchery is that the animal is always conscious. They do not instantly become unconscious from the cut.

If you ask I could provide you with links to such videos. Most probably won't play here since they are often rated adult due to content material. Do you really want to see such videos?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sheesh, I didn't quote the Qur'an i said the instructions are in the Qur'an. I cited the verdr number to you.

Now i am done with this barbaric bit of religion
The verse you allude to says this: "He has only forbidden you what dies of itself (carrion) and blood and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah. But if one is forced by necessity without willful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on them. Truly, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Insofar as I know, unless someone explains it, it does not say WHY the animal is sacrificed.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't know that much about Islam (do you?) but I do know something about Judaism. And I know that very little pain is imposed on an animal because the knife yes, by religious decree, has to be very sharp. And it is not stabbed all over to inflict pain. @dybmh explained it properly to you to the best of my knowledge. Many humans eat animal flesh. Or use leather, etc.
But it is clearly not painless. Even with a sharp knife. Both halal and kosher butchery require sharp knives and in their day they were more humane than many other methods. But we can be even more humane today. So why not go with that? The bruise to the forehead does not affect the meat in any way at all. I would suggest a combination of the two if one wanted to maintain one's traditions. Stun and then cut the neck just to be sure.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@YoursTrue ,

There are several reasons for the sacrifices. Some are known, some are unknown. For example, the north side of the altar is significant to God. Reducing the sacrifices to a communal meal ignores this and all the other details. I think it's best to accept that it's a mystery and needs to be completed in all of its details if the opportunity is returned to the Jewish people.
There are many things we do not know now from the scriptures. I hope to learn more about the past when, as Maimonides wrote, the resurrection is to come. :) And we can learn from those who were there at the time. :)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
People make statements without backup then tell you to do the research.
Yes, they do. And I understand that there are times when a person is just very busy, or doesn't feel good, or whatever, and isn't up to spending the time and energy to properly document their claims. I only became involved because, after not documenting her claims, she had the chutzpah to call the other person "lazy." She seems to be under the misunderstanding that the responsibility for doing the research lies with the other person.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I will have to side with @ChristineM on this one. Such videos are very disturbing to her. I can understand that. She told you how to find them. Instead you demanded that she do something that she told you was offensive to her.

Now I grew up on a farm. I have hunted for my own meat. So I am not so upset by those videos. If you still want to see videos of halal or kosher butchery I could find them for you. Stunning is not perfect either, but here is the important part, it does lower the odds of a botched painful death. I am sure that one could find stunning videos that went wrong too. The problem with both kosher and halal butchery is that the animal is always conscious. They do not instantly become unconscious from the cut.

If you ask I could provide you with links to such videos. Most probably won't play here since they are often rated adult due to content material. Do you really want to see such videos?
Sorry, she had no right to call him lazy. Doing the research is not his responsibility.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, and not only that, but all the prophets agree that in the end, God will bless Israel and restore her.
Not saying no. But that really does require another discussion with quite a different view of what is to be the future of religion. There is no doubt in mind that God worked with, and was the God of Israel stemming from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is so much to learn in the Hebrew scriptures. 2 Chronicles 22 brings out that Ahaziah (spelling can be different) was killed because he did what God did not want him to do in a big way by siding with the wrong people. The whole thing is very interesting. So eventually the earth will be just as Isaiah wrote. A beautiful place. No badness.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, they do. And I understand that there are times when a person is just very busy, or doesn't feel good, or whatever, and isn't up to spending the time and energy to properly document their claims. I only became involved because, after not documenting her claims, she had the chutzpah to call the other person "lazy." She seems to be under the misunderstanding that the responsibility for doing the research lies with the other person.
:) I try to be 'nice,' but I must say I'm still working on it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, she had no right to call him lazy. Doing the research is not his responsibility.
She told how to do the research. if she had just refused to do so for no good reason then you would have a valid claim, but to find such evidence one has to watch such videos. She has seen them She knows they exist so she instructed how the other person could have satisfied their curiosity. There are at times valid reasons for not presenting evidence, but when one does one has to provide a way for that other person find the evidence themselves and she did that.

And @YoursTrue is a she.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But it is clearly not painless. Even with a sharp knife. Both halal and kosher butchery require sharp knives and in their day they were more humane than many other methods. But we can be even more humane today. So why not go with that? The bruise to the forehead does not affect the meat in any way at all. I would suggest a combination of the two if one wanted to maintain one's traditions. Stun and then cut the neck just to be sure.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. As far as humane goes, have you ever been to or seen a slaughterhouse? I have not been inside one and I do not want to look. But from what I heard from people who worked there, it isn't pleasant and the animals are not treated humanely. In fact, many of the slain ones were sick and could hardly walk into the place. And sometimes people (workers) drowned in the blood pools by accident. There were not religiously oriented slaughterhouses. But thanks for your comment. Remember though my question was not particularly about HOW the animals were slaughtered, but why it was proscribed to have them killed as sacrifices.
OK, I gotta change that a little bit, since you said stunning and cutting their throats with a sharp knife could be the better way. I believe there's more to it. But I'd have to research it a bit.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what you're talking about. As far as humane goes, have you ever been to or seen a slaughterhouse? I have not been inside one and I do not want to look. But from what I heard from people who worked there, it isn't pleasant and the animals are not treated humanely. In fact, many of the slain ones were sick and could hardly walk into the place. And sometimes people (workers) drowned in the blood pools by accident. There were not religiously oriented slaughterhouses. But thanks for your comment. Remember though my question was not particularly about HOW the animals were slaughtered, but why it was proscribed to have them killed as sacrifices.
OK, I gotta change that a little bit, since you said stunning and cutting their throats with a sharp knife could be the better way. I believe there's more to it. But I'd have to research it a bit.
I never claimed that other methods were perfect. There is a lot of room for improvement. The problem is that both halal and kosher butchery use outdated techniques. In their time they were very humane. But we now have more humane methods. For both religions that use of traditional methods goes against the spirit of their laws. The reason that they had those laws were so that those animals were treated as humanely as possible. Now they have mistaken those laws and they see them as a religious rite instead of as a means to an end. The goal was to give the animal the least pain possible. Why do they oppose a method that results in even less pain for the animal?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God is a foodie, likes the fat portions of the firstlings. It is so very clearly written in the book. Why all these questions?
I detect :) that you don't care to be part of the discussion as religious thought of animal sacrifice goes.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not saying no. But that really does require another discussion with quite a different view of what is to be the future of religion. There is no doubt in mind that God worked with, and was the God of Israel stemming from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is so much to learn in the Hebrew scriptures. 2 Chronicles 22 brings out that Ahaziah (spelling can be different) was killed because he did what God did not want him to do in a big way by siding with the wrong people. The whole thing is very interesting. So eventually the earth will be just as Isaiah wrote. A beautiful place. No badness.
The biggest theme in the Tanakh is simply OBEY GOD. But the second biggest theme is that God is faithful to Israel even when Israel is not faithful to God.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The biggest theme in the Tanakh is simply OBEY GOD. But the second biggest theme is that God is faithful to Israel even when Israel is not faithful to God.
This is another discussion. Put another way, many people attend religious meetings of their choice and certainly not all could be said to obey God.
 
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