Another Bhagvad Gita Question

[Charzhino]

Hello all, I was reading this verse and the commentary of Sridhara Swami which is given below:

''All in whatever way surrender unto me, I reward them accordingly. All mankind follows my path O Arjuna, in all respects.

In this world those who desire success for fruitive activities worship the various demigods; since in human society success from fruitive actions manifests very quickly.'' 4: 11-12

It may be questioned that since Lord Krishna is the exclusive awarder of moksa or liberation from the cycle of birth and death; then why is it that most people are obliviously worshipping lesser gods instead of Him? The reason He answers is factual. People worship the lesser gods because they desire material benefits which is what the lesser gods can give. Worshipping lesser gods for wealth, dominion, a beautiful wife, a powerful son, such efforts easily bring quick results and the desired rewards. But moksa or liberation is only achieved as a result of cultivating Vedic knowledge about the Supreme Lord and thus it is hard to attain.

Firstly how is the bolded bit true for the religions today? I would of thought that all religions teach not to gain material desire.

Secondely, does the last line in Sawmis commentary mean that Moksha ultimatley can only be achieved by realising Krishna as the Supreme Lord even though Krishna says all devotees worship him directly or indirectly? Also does this go even for Hindus whom have their ''prmary God' to be worshipped other than Krishna, such as Vishnu, Indra, Ganesh, etc?' Therefore are these other gods seen to be ''lesser gods'?

 

[Riverwolf]

Hello all, I was reading this verse and the commentary of Sridhara Swami which is given below:

''All in whatever way surrender unto me, I reward them accordingly. All mankind follows my path O Arjuna, in all respects.

In this world those who desire success for fruitive activities worship the various demigods; since in human society success from fruitive actions manifests very quickly.'' 4: 11-12



Firstly how is the bolded bit true for the religions today? I would of thought that all religions teach not to gain material desire.

Secondely, does the last line in Sawmis commentary mean that Moksha ultimatley can only be achieved by realising Krishna as the Supreme Lord even though Krishna says all devotees worship him directly or indirectly? Also does this go even for Hindus whom have their ''prmary God' to be worshipped other than Krishna, such as Vishnu, Indra, Ganesh, etc?' Therefore are these other gods seen to be ''lesser gods'?

The "lesser gods" are any gods prayed to for material gain. Thus, even the Supreme Lord, when prayed to for material gain, becomes a "lesser god."

It is when the Supreme Lord is prayed to as the Supreme Lord, by whatever name given (Krishna, Indra, Ganesha, Shiva, Skanda, Devi, Kali, YHWH, Allah, Christ, whatever) that moksha is achieved. Names aren't important.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[Madhuri]

I think that the statement referred to the people of that time, and specifically in India (although most societies were polytheistic at the time).

The last line of the commentary did not say that you have to realise Krishna, it says cultivating knowledge about the Supreme Lord. To keep it simple, liberation comes from realising God. Personalities such as Indra or Ganesh are not God. They are demigods. Indra is a soul on a journey just like you and me. This is a great distinction. Krishna is a name representing the Supreme, the Source, so this is what is important. To become liberated, one must realise God. I should point out that realising God is not the same as realising which God is God or what His name is. By realising God you are realising everything, yourself and your relationship with everything.

Because God is Everything. This is why everyone everyone worships Him directly or indirectly. God is simultaneously the Creator and the Created. Just by serving humanity, you are serving God. And this is why Hindus generally believe that any path will ultimately lead to God.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Secondely, does the last line in Sawmis commentary mean that Moksha ultimatley can only be achieved by realising Krishna as the Supreme Lord even though Krishna says all devotees worship him directly or indirectly? Also does this go even for Hindus whom have their ''prmary God' to be worshipped other than Krishna, such as Vishnu, Indra, Ganesh, etc?' Therefore are these other gods seen to be ''lesser gods'?

There is nothing other than Krishna(so this question itself does not arise) ....BTW.Krishna is just a name,many sects may use names like Shiva,Brahman etc..

Thus, even the Supreme Lord, when prayed to for material gain, becomes a "lesser god."

Correct!!!

 

[Charzhino]

I think that the statement referred to the people of that time, and specifically in India (although most societies were polytheistic at the time).

The last line of the commentary did not say that you have to realise Krishna, it says cultivating knowledge about the Supreme Lord. To keep it simple, liberation comes from realising God. Personalities such as Indra or Ganesh are not God. They are demigods. Indra is a soul on a journey just like you and me. This is a great distinction. Krishna is a name representing the Supreme, the Source, so this is what is important. To become liberated, one must realise God. I should point out that realising God is not the same as realising which God is God or what His name is. By realising God you are realising everything, yourself and your relationship with everything.

Because God is Everything. This is why everyone everyone worships Him directly or indirectly. God is simultaneously the Creator and the Created. Just by serving humanity, you are serving God. And this is why Hindus generally believe that any path will ultimately lead to God.

But don't you have to believe that God can incarnate as human. As elsewhere it is said in the Gita, Krsna says:

''Fools deride me when I descend in the human form, they do not know my true transendental nature; and my Supreme Dominion over all that be. Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and athiestic views and in that deluded condition their hopes for liberation their fruit of activies and culture of knowledge are all defeated''

 

[Madhuri]

But don't you have to believe that God can incarnate as human. As elsewhere it is said in the Gita, Krsna says:

''Fools deride me when I descend in the human form, they do not know my true transendental nature; and my Supreme Dominion over all that be. Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and athiestic views and in that deluded condition their hopes for liberation their fruit of activies and culture of knowledge are all defeated''

Yes, there are many Avatars of God. I need a specific question to know how to answer you properly...

 

[Charzhino]

Yes, there are many Avatars of God. I need a specific question to know how to answer you properly...

Basically I was expanding on what you said about Hindu's seeing all religions as potential paths to liberation. However, only Christianity really believes that God can incarnate as man, the others such as Islam/Buddhism/Judaism don't believe that. And as Krsna says those people who do not truley understand his transcendetal nature fall down, does that mean only Hindu's can therefore achieve Moksha?

 

[Madasin]

I’m just new here and I guess I have to start somewhere. So I hope you don’t mind.. As a way of sharing more of myself as I go.. I would just like to say that personally I don’t believe prayer should be about asking for things. Instead it should be about giving thanks for what we have as well as what we believe we will receive through the goodness of the universe. And when I think of lesser gods, I believe we are the lesser gods but as a whole we and everything around us and within us is God. Also I don’t believe these beliefs necessarily have anything to do with religion. Religion is the teaching and the following of what we believe to be God. Religion is the word of God. Spirituality is the breath of God. As Carl Jung once said, “I don’t believe in God. I know God.” Or words to that effect.

 

[Madhuri]

Basically I was expanding on what you said about Hindu's seeing all religions as potential paths to liberation. However, only Christianity really believes that God can incarnate as man, the others such as Islam/Buddhism/Judaism don't believe that. And as Krsna says those people who do not truley understand his transcendetal nature fall down, does that mean only Hindu's can therefore achieve Moksha?

Ah, well that can be explained from a subjective interpretation of course
It seems to me that he is talking about people in ignorance. Ignorance is the equivalent of the 'evil' concept. It causes us to act selfishly, unwisely. Ignorant persons do ignorant things which keep them in the cycle of Samsara (birth and death) through karma. The kind of people who would not recognise God are people covered by maya, illusion (ignorance). We are all in this situation (including Hindus). That is why we are still on the material platform of life. Also, he is specifically saying that people who act in ignorance basically negate many of the positive actions, at least from the perspective of one attempting to gain liberation. This does not mean that only a Hindu can attain Realisation. Realisation can come from a number of ways. Once realised, one is no longer affected by karma and is thus liberated from Samsara.

The thing with the Gita is that I do not think that English translation has been done very nicely. I wonder if words like 'fools' or 'demonic' are actually appropriate. This might even be only found in Prabhupada's translation.

Also to add, the Hindus who believe that God takes birth in human form still consider his 'human' body to be spiritual rather than material. I don't know if this is true or not. In any case, God does take a place among people for particular purposes according to this Hindu view.

 

[Metempsychosis]

But don't you have to believe that God can incarnate as human. As elsewhere it is said in the Gita, Krsna says:

''Fools deride me when I descend in the human form, they do not know my true transendental nature; and my Supreme Dominion over all that be. Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and athiestic views and in that deluded condition their hopes for liberation their fruit of activies and culture of knowledge are all defeated''

You should be knowing that the Sikh religion is offshoot of Advaita Vedanta propounded by Adi Shankara.Advaita itself follows the footsteps of esoteric Shiviate tradition.

In advaita,

Jiva is not separate from brahman,it is like river mixing with ocean and losing all individuality and becoming one with Ocean.

You can consider Krishna like a perfect Crystal(they don't have any ego "self"),he reflects the infinite light of God from above.Hence,he can say "I am God" in Hinduism.If you get enlightened,you can also say that...(But there will not be any meaning of "I" then for enlightenment is the annihilation of mind and ego).

Basically I was expanding on what you said about Hindu's seeing all religions as potential paths to liberation. However, only Christianity really believes that God can incarnate as man, the others such as Islam/Buddhism/Judaism don't believe that. And as Krsna says those people who do not truley understand his transcendetal nature fall down, does that mean only Hindu's can therefore achieve Moksha?

No,you are wrong .In Buddhism a compassionate Boddhisattva can be born,to help and to liberate pious people. In my view ,Christ told that he was God in monistic sense,but Christianity takes it monotheistic perspective. .IMHO,In Esoteric Judaism (I know very little about this religion,sorry If I am wrong),has concept of messiaah,whose spiritual centres from Malkuth to Keter are active from birth.Please Don't compare Orthodox Abrahamic religions like Islam and Judaism ,which are entirely dualist ,with non-dualist dharmic religion.

Lord Krishna is not born because of force of Karma like you and me.He was born on his own will, to remove adharma.Hence,he is beyond maya right from the time he is born.This is transcendental nature He is talking about.

In order to realize transcendental nature of Krishna ,you need enlightenment..Otherwise we will be reincarnated(that is what he means by "falling down".)Nothing about Hindu or Non-Hindu mentioned in the BG.

Note:What I have presented in the advaita view(to the best of my knowledge),other sects like Vaishnava differ.

BTW...If you don't a higher level being incarnating in Human form ,you should read the Upanishads.Some sects dont even consider BG to be a Shruti.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

But don't you have to believe that God can incarnate as human. [/I]

No you do not have to believe that God can incarnate as a human. The lord Rama (an incarnation ) ran into a group of Rishis (Seers or sages) that did not believe he was an incarnation or Avater. Still they were call Rishis. In my sect of Hinduism we believe that all beings are God. It is just that a Rama or Krishna are super manifestations of God. By looking on the play of Krishna or Rama one sees God Himself.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Secondely, does the last line in Sawmis commentary mean that Moksha ultimatley can only be achieved by realising Krishna as the Supreme Lord even though Krishna says all devotees worship him directly or indirectly? Also does this go even for Hindus whom have their ''prmary God' to be worshipped other than Krishna, such as Vishnu, Indra, Ganesh, etc?' Therefore are these other gods seen to be ''lesser gods'?

This Swami seems to be from a sect of Hinduism that has a very limited view of God. So his interpretation is very limited. Only his view is correct. If you see Shiva as your Ishta Devata (the form of God that you love and model your life around) then all the Gods are just many manifestations of Siva.

I agree with Riverwolfs take on this subject. If you degrade your self and pray for things like lust and greed then you are praying to a demi God. It should be noted that in Hinduism if any scripture including the Gita contradicts the Vedas then that scripture is wrong. The Vedas clearly state that all the Gods are ONE.

 

[Charzhino]

I agree with Riverwolfs take on this subject. If you degrade your self and pray for things like lust and greed then you are praying to a demi God. It should be noted that in Hinduism if any scripture including the Gita contradicts the Vedas then that scripture is wrong. The Vedas clearly state that all the Gods are ONE.

I have heard that the Vedas do not contain any information about God being able to incarnate into human form either? Is this correct?

 

[Metempsychosis]

I have heard that the Vedas do not contain any information about God being able to incarnate into human form either? Is this correct?

Vedas say that everyone can become God.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I have heard that the Vedas do not contain any information about God being able to incarnate into human form either? Is this correct?

I believe the concept of the incarnation was a later devolopment. Just because it is not in the Vedas does not mean it is wrong. The ideas and concepts were refined as time went on. The Vedas is not a systemized philosophy ( the Upanishads seem a little closer to exposing a systematic philosophy) that came much later in Human History. They did not need it, Truth seemed to be much closer to the rishis. The did not need the organization of a philosophical system when they could see and experience the Truth in a direct way.
But look at this.

Devi Suktam: (Part of Rig Veda 10.8.125 )

"Om ! I move along with the Rudras, Vasus, Adithas and all other Devas. I bear the Mithra, Varuna, Indra, Agni and the two Ashwini Devas.

I bear the Soman who is the destroyer of enemies and the Twashta, Bushan and Bagan. I give wealth to the performer of the Yajna or Sacrifice who submits sacrificial things in the Yajna, who pours the Soma rasa, and who makes the Devas receive the Havis or their due of the Sacrifice.

I am the Queen of the Universe; I give wealth to those who worship me. I am the all-knowing one and the prime one among the worship-able deities. I enter many bodies as the Atma, taking various forms and with different manifestations, in various ways. Hence, the Devas have incorporated me in various places.

That one who eats food, who sees, breathes, and hears whatever is said, he does all that only through me (my powers). Those who do not understand me, die. O dear one ! (to the worshipper or devotee), hear this singing of mine with concentration.

"All these are me (and various manifestations of mine). I am the one worshipped by the Devas and the earthly beings. If I like someone (for his meditation towards me), I make him the greatest, the most intelligent as a Sage, and as a Self-Realised soul.

I bend the bow of the Rudra to kill all those enemies who detest all good things. I fight these bad elements / enemies only for the people. I enter, pervade and persist throughout the earth and the sky.

I created the sky, which is (as a shelter) above the earth and which is fatherly for all beings. My creativity (power) is within the Ocean and waters. By that, I am present in all the worlds. And I touch the sky with my body

When I start creating all the worlds, I function like the air (so fast in the function). I am taller and higher than the Sky. I am greater than this earth. Such is my valor, might, prowess and greatness."

OM! Shanti Shanti Shanti or Peace Peace Peace]

The Devi Suktam is very sacred to the Mother worshipers The Chandi (the most used of all the texts for mother worshipers) is a commentary on these verses. I dont like this translation but I could copy and paste it.

The idea that all is God is shown from the Vedas in a very beautiful way. This was written by a woman sage by name Vak, who is the daughter of Sage Ambrunar. I love this text it is the only part of the Vedas I try to read every day.

You see this Women knew that she was God. Just like you are God and the ant that steals your sugar ( the sugar is God also) out of your kitchen is God. SAHUM (I AM SHE) as it says in the Tantras.
Krishna, Rama, Buddha, and Jesus are just special manifestations of the One God. They come to change the world and remind us who we are.


-Jai Maa-

 

[Riverwolf]

It should be noted that in Hinduism if any scripture including the Gita contradicts the Vedas then that scripture is wrong. The Vedas clearly state that all the Gods are ONE.

A very difficult thing to decide, though, considering the massiveness of the accumulative texts that make up the Vedas, and the fact that there are apparently parts that didn't get translated back in the late 1800s, when the only "unabridged" English translations since (apparently) started popping up.

 

[Satsangi]

A very difficult thing to decide, though, considering the massiveness of the accumulative texts that make up the Vedas, and the fact that there are apparently parts that didn't get translated back in the late 1800s, when the only "unabridged" English translations since (apparently) started popping up.

The question of BG contradicting Vedas does not arise; because simply it does not. Both the scriptures come from the same source- Him. If one perceives any contradiction then it is lack of his/her understanding.

Regards,

 

[Riverwolf]

The question of BG contradicting Vedas does not arise; because simply it does not. Both the scriptures come from the same source- Him. If one perceives any contradiction then it is lack of his/her understanding.

Regards,

I never said there was a contradiction.

 

[Satsangi]

I never said there was a contradiction.

Sorry, I put wrong post in the quote; wanted to quote Wannabe yogi's post.

Regards,

 

[Riverwolf]

Sorry, I put wrong post in the quote; wanted to quote Wannabe yogi's post.

Regards,

No problem. I've done more embarrassing things with that quote button before. :yes: