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Another irrefutable proof that God created all things using mathematical induction. And a proof that The Bible is the word of God.

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And The word “only“ is missing.
So your theory is false,
You're not even remotely logical or even honest. "An angel" implies 1 angel, plus your claim that there were many more angels there is imply your invention that you have not and cannot substantiate.

What you are doing is to make up your own "bible" based on what you want it to say, which is a bass-ackwards approach.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
You're not even remotely logical or even honest. "An angel" implies 1 angel, plus your claim that there were many more angels there is imply your invention that you have not and cannot substantiate.

What you are doing is to make up your own "bible" based on what you want it to say, which is a bass-ackwards approach.
Implies?
So that again shows a no contradiction.
If I asked A worker in a grocery store where something was.
How many workers were in the grocery store?
If I the saw 2 workers in another aisle and asked them about something else, how many workers are in the grocery store?
if I then asked A worker where something else was, how many workers are in the grocery store?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
In any story, details may be left out from one teller to another. In the gospel accounts relating to the disciples going to the tomb where Jesus was buried the accounts are basically the same, the women going first and relating what they had seen. The basic elements are there in each account and in fact portrays the reality of the situation even if one account says one angel while another says two men. The men are understood to be angels. Descriptions as related especially in excitement can be slightly differently related or recounted.
If I have time to research I will try to cover some of your other points.
Or, they are 2 different stories, the Mark and Luke narrative suggests the author was saying something very different.
There are physical things that cannot be reconciled like the ripping of the curtain.
Or Mark's account vs Luke. In one Jesus is purposely silent, as I noted, he holds his words until the end when he cries the line from Psalms.

Jesus' Death in Mark (Ehrman)

In Mark’s version of the story (Mark 15:16—39), Jesus is condemned
to death by Pontius Pilate, mocked and beaten by the Roman sol¬
diers, and taken off to be crucified. Simon of Cyrene carries his cross.
Jesus says nothing the entire time. The soldiers crucify Jesus, and
he still says nothing. Both of the robbers being crucified with him
mock him. Those passing by mock him. The Jewish leaders mock
him. Jesus is silent until the very end, when he utters the wretched
cry, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani,” which Mark translates from the
Aramaic for his readers as, “My God, my God, why have you for¬
saken me?” Someone gives Jesus a sponge with sour wine to drink.
He breathes his last and dies. Immediately two things happen: the
curtain in the Temple is ripped in half, and the centurion looking on
acknowledges, “Truly this man was the Son of God.”

This is a powerful and moving scene, filled with emotion and
pathos. Jesus is silent the entire time, as if in shock, until his cry at
the end, echoing Psalm 22.1 take his question to God to be a genuine
one. He genuinely wants to know why God has left him like this. A
very popular interpretation of the passage is that since Jesus quotes
Psalm 22:1, he is actually thinking of the ending of the Psalm,
where God intervenes and vindicates the suffering psalmist. I think
this is reading way too much into the passage and robs the “cry of
dereliction,” as it is called, of all its power. The point is that Jesus has
been rejected by everyone: betrayed by one of his own, denied three
times by his closest follower, abandoned by all his disciples, rejected
by the Jewish leaders, condemned by the Roman authorities, mocked
by the priests, the passersby, and even by the two others being cruci¬
fied with him. At the end he even feels forsaken by God Himself.
Jesus is absolutely in the depths of despair and heart-wrenching
anguish, and that’s how he dies. Mark is trying to say something by
this portrayal. He doesn’t want his readers to take solace in the fact
that God was really there providing Jesus with physical comfort. He
dies in agony, unsure of the reason he must die.

But the reader knows the reason. Right after Jesus dies the cur¬
tain rips in half and the centurion makes his confession. The cur¬
tain ripping in half shows that with the death of Jesus, God is made
available to his people directly and not through the Jewish priests’
sacrifices in the Temple. Jesus’ death has brought an atonement (see
Mark 10:45). And someone realizes it right off the bat: not Jesus’
closest followers or the Jewish onlookers but the pagan soldier who
has just crucified him. Jesus’ death brings salvation, and it is gentiles
who are going to recognize it. This is not a disinterested account of
what “really” happened when Jesus died. It is theology put in the
form of a narrative.

Historical scholars have long thought that Mark is not only ex¬
plaining the significance of Jesus’ death in this account but also
quite possibly writing with a particular audience in mind, an audi¬
ence of later followers of Jesus who also have experienced persecu¬
tion and suffering at the hands of authorities who are opposed to
God. Like Jesus, his followers may not know why they are experienc¬
ing such pain and misery. But Mark tells these Christians they can

rest assured: even though they may not see why they are suffering,
God knows, and God is working behind the scenes to make suffering
redemptive. God’s purposes are worked precisely through suffering,
not by avoiding it, even when those purposes are not obvious at the
moment. Mark’s version of the death of Jesus thus provides a model
for understanding the persecution of the Christians. "

In Luke the narrative is completely different and combining them destroys the writers message completely.


I know the apologetics, they don't work and are mostly excuses.
I see that Luke and Mark are writing different stories.
 
Last edited:

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
Or, they are 2 different stories, the Mark and Luke narrative suggests the author was saying something very different.
There are physical things that cannot be reconciled like the ripping of the curtain.
Or Mark's account vs Luke. In one Jesus is purposely silent, as I noted, he holds his words until the end when he cries the line from Psalms.

Jesus' Death in Mark (Ehrman)

In Mark’s version of the story (Mark 15:16—39), Jesus is condemned
to death by Pontius Pilate, mocked and beaten by the Roman sol¬
diers, and taken off to be crucified. Simon of Cyrene carries his cross.
Jesus says nothing the entire time. The soldiers crucify Jesus, and
he still says nothing. Both of the robbers being crucified with him
mock him. Those passing by mock him. The Jewish leaders mock
him. Jesus is silent until the very end, when he utters the wretched
cry, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani,” which Mark translates from the
Aramaic for his readers as, “My God, my God, why have you for¬
saken me?” Someone gives Jesus a sponge with sour wine to drink.
He breathes his last and dies. Immediately two things happen: the
curtain in the Temple is ripped in half, and the centurion looking on
acknowledges, “Truly this man was the Son of God.”

This is a powerful and moving scene, filled with emotion and
pathos. Jesus is silent the entire time, as if in shock, until his cry at
the end, echoing Psalm 22.1 take his question to God to be a genuine
one. He genuinely wants to know why God has left him like this. A
very popular interpretation of the passage is that since Jesus quotes
Psalm 22:1, he is actually thinking of the ending of the Psalm,
where God intervenes and vindicates the suffering psalmist. I think
this is reading way too much into the passage and robs the “cry of
dereliction,” as it is called, of all its power. The point is that Jesus has
been rejected by everyone: betrayed by one of his own, denied three
times by his closest follower, abandoned by all his disciples, rejected
by the Jewish leaders, condemned by the Roman authorities, mocked
by the priests, the passersby, and even by the two others being cruci¬
fied with him. At the end he even feels forsaken by God Himself.
Jesus is absolutely in the depths of despair and heart-wrenching
anguish, and that’s how he dies. Mark is trying to say something by
this portrayal. He doesn’t want his readers to take solace in the fact
that God was really there providing Jesus with physical comfort. He
dies in agony, unsure of the reason he must die.

But the reader knows the reason. Right after Jesus dies the cur¬
tain rips in half and the centurion makes his confession. The cur¬
tain ripping in half shows that with the death of Jesus, God is made
available to his people directly and not through the Jewish priests’
sacrifices in the Temple. Jesus’ death has brought an atonement (see
Mark 10:45). And someone realizes it right off the bat: not Jesus’
closest followers or the Jewish onlookers but the pagan soldier who
has just crucified him. Jesus’ death brings salvation, and it is gentiles
who are going to recognize it. This is not a disinterested account of
what “really” happened when Jesus died. It is theology put in the
form of a narrative.

Historical scholars have long thought that Mark is not only ex¬
plaining the significance of Jesus’ death in this account but also
quite possibly writing with a particular audience in mind, an audi¬
ence of later followers of Jesus who also have experienced persecu¬
tion and suffering at the hands of authorities who are opposed to
God. Like Jesus, his followers may not know why they are experienc¬
ing such pain and misery. But Mark tells these Christians they can

rest assured: even though they may not see why they are suffering,
God knows, and God is working behind the scenes to make suffering
redemptive. God’s purposes are worked precisely through suffering,
not by avoiding it, even when those purposes are not obvious at the
moment. Mark’s version of the death of Jesus thus provides a model
for understanding the persecution of the Christians. "

In Luke the narrative is completely different and combining them destroys the writers message completely.


I know the apologetics, they don't work and are mostly excuses.
I see that Luke and Mark are writing different stories.
What version of the Bible are you using?
And please be specific with quotes to make any claims?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Implies?
So that again shows a no contradiction.
If I asked A worker in a grocery store where something was.
How many workers were in the grocery store?
If I the saw 2 workers in another aisle and asked them about something else, how many workers are in the grocery store?
if I then asked A worker where something else was, how many workers are in the grocery store?
Inventing excuses not supported by evidence is not being honest theologically.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
What version of the Bible are you using?
And please be specific with quotes to make any claims?
It's from Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted, Ehrman studied with the top scholar for Greek NT translation in the U.S., "Bruce Manning Metzger was an American biblical scholar, Bible translator and textual critic who was a longtime professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and Bible editor who served on the board of the American Bible Society and United Bible Societies."

You can consider Ehrman's translation to be as good as it gets for English.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
It's from Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted, Ehrman studied with the top scholar for Greek NT translation in the U.S., "Bruce Manning Metzger was an American biblical scholar, Bible translator and textual critic who was a longtime professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and Bible editor who served on the board of the American Bible Society and United Bible Societies."

You can consider Ehrman's translation to be as good as it gets for English.
The KJB is without error.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The KJB is without error.
Right, except the latest copy of the gospels is far later than when they were written.
We have an early Deuteronomy in Hebrew that is different than the one used.
We still have all the contradictions, things Yahweh said would happen and didn't.
Mesopotamian, Persian, Greek theology.


You can read contradictions all day here:

Mark and Luke's passion story are clearly 2 different tales. It's endless.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Please prove any errros.
The Genealogy of Jesus

Genealogies are not usually among the favorite passages of readers
of the Bible. Sometimes my students complain when I have them
read the genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. If they think
this is bad, I tell them they should take a class on the Hebrew Bible
and read the genealogy of 1 Chronicles. It covers nine full chapters,
name after name. By comparison, the genealogies of Jesus in Mat¬
thew and Luke are short and sweet. The problem is that the genealo¬
gies are different.

Once again, Matthew and Luke are our only Gospels that give
Jesus’ family line. Both of them trace his lineage through Joseph to
the Jewish ancestors. This in itself creates a puzzling situation. As we
have seen, both Matthew and Luke want to insist that Jesus’ mother
was a virgin: she conceived not by having sex with Joseph but by the
Holy Spirit. Joseph is not Jesus’ father. But that creates an obvious
problem. If Jesus is not a blood-relation to Joseph, why is it that Mat¬
thew and Luke trace Jesus’ bloodline precisely through Joseph? This
is a question that neither author answers: both accounts give a gene-
alogy that can’t be the genealogy of Jesus, since his only bloodline
goes through Mary, yet neither author provides her genealogy.

Apart from this general problem, there are several obvious differ¬
ences between the genealogies of Matthew 1 and Luke 3. Some of
them are not discrepancies per se; they are just differences. For ex¬
ample, Matthew gives the genealogy at the very outset of his Gospel,
in the opening verses; Luke gives his after the baptism of Jesus in
chapter 3 (an odd place for a genealogy, since genealogies have to
do with your birth, not your baptism as a thirty-year-old. But Luke
may have had his reasons for locating it where he does). Matthew’s
genealogy traces Joseph’s lineage back through King David, the
ancestor of the Messiah, all the way to Abraham, the father of the
Jews. Luke’s genealogy goes back well beyond that, tracing the line
to Adam, father of the human race.

I have an aunt who is a genealogist, who is proud to have traced
our family back to a passenger on the Mayflower. But here is a ge¬
nealogy that goes back to Adam. As in Adam and Eve—the first
humans. It’s an amazing genealogy.

One might wonder why the two authors have different end points
for their genealogies. Usually it is thought that Matthew, a Gospel
concerned to show the Jewishness of Jesus, wants to emphasize Jesus’
relation to the greatest king of the Jews, David, and to the father
of the Jews, Abraham. Luke, on the other hand, is concerned to
show that Jesus is the savior of all people, Jew and gentile, as seen
in Luke’s second volume, the book of Acts, where the gentiles are
brought into the church. And so Luke shows that Jesus is related to
all of us through Adam.

One other difference between the two genealogies is that Matthew
starts at the beginning, with Abraham, and moves down generation
by generation to Joseph; Luke goes the other direction, starting with
Joseph and moving generation by generation back to Adam.

These then are simply some of the differences between the two
accounts. The real problem they pose, however, is that the two gene¬
alogies are actually different. The easiest way to see the difference is
to ask the simple question, Who, in each genealogy, is Joseph’s father,
patrilineal grandfather, and great-grandfather? In Matthew the
family line goes from Joseph to Jacob to Matthan to Eleazar to Eliud
and on into the past. In Luke it goes from Joseph to Heli to Mathat
to Levi to Melchi. The lines become similar once we get all the way
back to King David (although there are other problems, as we’ll see),
but from David to Joseph, the lines are at odds.

How does one solve this problem? One typical suggestion is to say
that Matthew’s genealogy is of Joseph, since Matthew focuses on
Joseph more in the birth narrative, and that Luke’s is of Mary, since
she is the focus of his birth narrative. It is an attractive solution, but
it has a fatal flaw. Luke explicitly indicates that the family line is
that of Joseph, not Mary (Luke 1:23; also Matthew 1:16). 7

There are other problems. In some ways Matthew’s genealogy is
the more remarkable because he stresses the numerological signifi¬
cance of Jesus’ ancestry. From Abraham to David, Israel’s greatest
king, there were fourteen generations; from David to the destruc¬
tion of Judah by the Babylonians, Israel’s greatest disaster, there
were fourteen generations; and from the Babylonian disaster to the
birth of Jesus, fourteen generations (1:17). Fourteen, fourteen, and
fourteen—it is almost as if God had planned it this way. In fact, for
Matthew, he had. After every fourteen generations there occurs an
enormously significant event. This must mean that Jesus—the four¬
teenth generation—is someone of very great importance to God.

The problem is that the fourteen-fourteen-fourteen schema doesn’t
actually work. If you read through the names carefully, you’ll see
that in the third set of fourteen there are in fact only thirteen gen¬
erations. Moreover, it is relatively easy to check Matthew’s genealogy
against his source, the Hebrew Bible itself, which provides him with
the names for his genealogy. It turns out that Matthew left out some
names in the fourteen generations from David to the Babylonian di¬
saster. In 1:8 he indicates that Joram is the father of Uzziah. But we
know from 1 Chronicles 3:10—12 that Joram was not Uzziah’s father,
but his great-great-grandfather. 8 In other words, Matthew has dropped
three generations from the genealogy. Why? The answer should be ob¬
vious. If he included all the generations, he would not be able to claim
that something significant happened at every fourteenth generation.

But why does he stress the number fourteen in particular? Why
not seventeen, or eleven? Scholars have given several explanations
over the years. Some have pointed out that in the Bible seven is the
perfect number. If so, then what is fourteen? Twice seven. This could
be a “doubly perfect” genealogy. Another, possibly more convincing,
theory is that the genealogy is designed to stress Jesus’ status as the
Messiah. The Messiah is to be the “son of David,” a descendant of
Israel’s greatest king. It is important to know that in ancient lan¬
guages, the letters of the alphabet functioned also as numerals, so
that the first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, aleph, was also the nu¬
meral 1, the second, beth, was 2, the third, gimel, was 3, and so on.
Also, in ancient Hebrew no vowels were used. So the name David
was spelled D-V-D. In Hebrew, the letter D (daleth) is the number
4 and the V (waw) is 6. If you add up the letters of David’s name,
it equals 14. That may be why Matthew wanted there to be three
groups of precisely fourteen generations in the genealogy of the son
of David, the Messiah, Jesus.

Unfortunately, to make the numbers work he had to leave out
some names. I might also point out that if Matthew was right in his
fourteen-fourteen-fourteen schema, there would be forty-two names
between Abraham and Jesus. Luke’s genealogy, however, gives fifty-
seven names. These are different genealogies.

And the reason for the discrepancies? Each author had a purpose
for including a genealogy—or, more likely, several purposes: to show
Jesus’ connection to the father of the Jews, Abraham (especially Mat-
thew), and the great king of the Jews, David (Matthew), and to the
human race as a whole (Luke). Probably the two authors inherited,
or possibly they made up, different genealogies. Of course neither
could know that his account would be placed in a “New Testament”
and be carefully compared with the other by historical critics living
two thousand years later. And they certainly didn’t consult with each
other to get their facts straight. Each gave his account as well as he
could, but their accounts ended up different.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Please prove any errros.
One point in particular seems to be irreconcilable. In Mark’s ac¬
count the women are instructed to tell the disciples to go meet Jesus
in Galilee, but out of fear they don’t say a word to anyone about it.
In Matthew’s version the disciples are told to go to Galilee to meet
Jesus, and they immediately do so. He appears to them there and
gives them their final instruction. But in Luke the disciples are not
told to go to Galilee. They are told that Jesus had foretold his resur¬
rection while he was in Galilee (during his public ministry). And
they never leave Jerusalem—in the southern part of the Israel, a
different region from Galilee, in the north. On the day of the res¬
urrection Jesus appears to two disciples on the “road to Emmaus”
(24:13—35); later that day these disciples tell the others what they
have seen, and Jesus appears to all of them (24:36—49); and then
Jesus takes them to Bethany on the outskirts of Jerusalem and
gives them their instructions and ascends to heaven. In Luke’s next
volume, Acts, we’re told that the disciples are in fact explicitly told
by Jesus after his resurrection not to leave Jerusalem (Acts 1:4), but
to stay there until they receive the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pen¬
tecost, fifty days after Passover. After giving his instructions, Jesus
then ascends to heaven. The disciples do stay in Jerusalem until
the Holy Spirit comes (Acts 2). And so the discrepancy: If Matthew
is right, that the disciples immediately go to Galilee and see Jesus
ascend from there, how can Luke be right that the disciples stay in
Jerusalem the whole time, see Jesus ascend from there, and stay on
until the day of Pentecost?

2. What did Jesus tell the high priest when questioned at his tidal?
My sense is that historically, this is something we could never know.
Jesus was there, and the Jewish leaders were there, but there were
no followers of Jesus there, taking notes for posterity. Nevertheless,

Mark gives us a clear account. The high priest asks Jesus if he is
the “Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One” (14:61), and Jesus gives a
straightforward reply, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man seated
at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven”
(Mark 14:62). In other words, in the near future God would be send¬
ing a cosmic judge of the earth, in fulfillment of the predictions of
the Old Testament (Daniel 7:13—14). In fact, it was so near that the
high priest himself would see it happen.

What if it doesn’t happen? What if the high priest were to die
before the Son of Man arrived? Wouldn’t that invalidate Jesus’
claim? Maybe. And that may be why Luke, writing some fifteen
or twenty years after Mark—presumably after the high priest has
died—changes Jesus’ answer. Now when he replies he says nothing
about the high priest being alive when the Son of Man arrives in
judgment: “I am, and from now on the Son of Man will be seated at
the right hand of the power of God” (Luke 22:69).

3. Why does Matthew quote the wrong prophet? When Matthew
indicates that Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver, he notes
(as by now we expect of him) that this was in fulfillment of Scrip¬
ture: “Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet
Jeremiah, And they took the thirty pieces of silver . . . and they gave
them for the potter’s field’ ” (Mathew 27:9—10). The problem is that
this prophecy is not found in Jeremiah. It appears to be a loose quo¬
tation of Zechariah 11:3.
4. When was the curtain in the Temple ripped? The curtain in the
Temple separated the holiest place, called the “holy of holies,” from
the rest of the Temple precincts. It was in the holy of holies that
God was thought to dwell here on earth (he obviously is reigning
in heaven as well). No one could enter that room behind the curtain
except once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), when
the high priest could go in to offer a sacrifice, first for his own sins
and then for the sins of the people. According to Mark’s Gospel,
after Jesus breathes his last, the curtain of the Temple is torn in
half (15:38). This has long been recognized as a symbolic statement,

for there is no historical evidence to suggest the curtain was ever
destroyed before the Temple itself was burned to the ground forty
years later in the war with the Romans. For Mark, Jesus’ death
means the end of the need for Temple sacrifices. In his son’s death
God is now available to all people; he is no longer separated from
them by a thick curtain. Jesus’ death makes people one with God: it
is an atonement (at-one-ment) for sin.

Luke’s Gospel also indicates that the curtain in the Temple was
ripped in half. Oddly enough, it does not rip after Jesus dies but is
explicitly said to rip while Jesus is still alive and hanging on the
cross (23:45—46). I will speak about the significance of this discrep¬
ancy in the next chapter, as this change is directly tied to Luke’s
understanding of Jesus’ death.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You proved no such thing.
Yes, I have. Multiple times. I need to remind you once again that you do not even understand the concept of evidence. You refuse to learn what is and what is not evidence. That means that you are in no position to judge who has proved what.
I understand why you won't learn. Creationists seem to sense that if they knew what is and what is not evidence that they could no longer even pretend to be honest when they posted links from pseudoscience sources.

The only way that you can maintain your beliefs is through willful ignorance. Your fear is what is causing you to lose every argument.
 
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