Answered Prayers

[It Aint Necessarily So]

when we treat colon cancer, there is an 80% success rates which means that 20% are not successful. We celebrate the success and realize or study why the 20% didn’t make it. We certainly don’t throw out the treatment because there were failures.

The reason we don't throw out the interventions for colon cancer is because they have been shown empirically to mitigate morbidity and mortality. We know that outcomes are better with them than without them however many don't benefit. That's how we decide when an intervention produces a better outcome than a placebo - in controlled, randomized, double-blind studies.

You probably already know the outcome when prayer was tested against no prayer:

From Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

"Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG [coronary artery bypass grafting], but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

The STEP study revealed no benefit to prayer, but worse, demonstrated a deleterious effect of being a cardiac patient and a believer going for relatively dangerous surgery and knowing that you were prayed for.

I found those studies to be filled with flaws.

Of course you did. The scientific community disagrees with you, but it evaluates evidence differently than a believer with a confirmation bias would.

 

[Kenny]

Why do we presume that God is supposed to be our servant?

In our understanding, as per my signature, He isn’t. But like parents, we do love blessing our children.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is an analogy… not a literal representation.

Well, it was a false analogy. Or at best a misleading one, since you seemed to imply the succes rate was similar.

A better analogy would be if a certain treatment for cancer has no statistical difference in success rate as compared to no treatment at all.

I found those studies to be filled with flaws. Too many nuances in those tests.

How so?

 

[Kenny]

The reason we don't throw out the interventions for colon cancer is because they have been shown empirically to mitigate morbidity and mortality. We know that outcomes are better with them than without them however many don't benefit. That's how we decide when an intervention produces a better outcome than a placebo controlled, randomized, double-blind studies.

You probably already know the outcome when prayer was tested against no prayer:

From Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

"Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG [coronary artery bypass grafting], but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

The STEP study revealed no benefit to prayer, but worse, demonstrated a deleterious effect of being a cardiac patient and a believer going for relatively dangerous surgery and knowing that you were prayed for.

I have found that these studies are filled with flaws. Too many nuances that they don’t take into consideration.

For me and many others, we find it wholly useful and successful.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have found that these studies are filled with flaws. Too many nuances that they don’t take into consideration.

Such as?
Give me what you thought to be the "biggest" flaw and explain.

For me and many others, we find it wholly useful and successful.

Yeah, from where I sit, it's mere confirmation bias. Not different from believers in homeopathy and how it was "useful and successful" for them, while completely ignoring every study showing nothing statistically different from a placebo effect.

But I will await with an open mind what you think are the flaws in the study mentioned above.

 

[Kenny]

Well, it was a false analogy. Or at best a misleading one, since you seemed to imply the succes rate was similar.

A better analogy would be if a certain treatment for cancer has no statistical difference in success rate as compared to no treatment at all.

This sounds more like a prayerless perspective.

How so?

People can say “I am praying” but are using the wrong utensils for the issue or fall into the category of
Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

So they may call it “intercessory prayer” but may really be vain repetitions. There are many other nuances.

That is why I am posting what does work and what issues we may encounter as we learn why it didn’t work

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This sounds more like a prayerless perspective.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

People can say “I am praying” but are using the wrong utensils for the issue or fall into the category of
Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

So they may call it “intercessory prayer” but may really be vain repetitions. There are many other nuances.

That is why I am posting what does work and what issues we may encounter as we learn why it didn’t work

Ow, so in other words, your "objection" is that they were "praying wrong"?
I'm getting "no true scottsman" vibes here.

Do you believe that you would get better results (as in a clear statistical signal as compared to a control group) if YOU were to hand pick the people doing the praying and if YOU were to decide how they should be praying?


I'ld love to see the results of that study.

But it won't be coming, right?

 

[PureX]

In our understanding, as per my signature, He isn’t. But like parents, we do love blessing them.

I think we just want to believe that we have some mechanism of extending our ability to control our own fate beyond the obvious limits. And interestingly, it does often help us to do that. The act of praying itself can help us to be more calm, insightful, and effective in moving forward in our lives when we are confronted by difficulties.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think we just want to believe that we have some mechanism of extending our ability to control our own fate beyond the obvious limits. And interestingly, it does often help us to do that. The act of praying itself can help us to be more calm, insightful, and effective in moving forward in our lives when we are confronted by difficulties.

The question is.... is it the "praying" that does that, or is it the self-reflection and the stepping back and looking at the situation at hand that does it?

It's interesting actually... In the world of software engineering, we have this concept of "ask the duck on your desk".

When you are a stuck on a problem or bug you can't figure out... many developers ask their team mates for help to look at the problem together. But off course when you do that, you disturb your team mate and pull him of his own work. And many a time, when you call your team mate to come look at your screen, you'll actually figure out the problem by yourself merely by explaining it to your team mate. You might have been staring at your screen for more then an hour feeling totally stuck... and yet, after 20 sec of explaining the issue to helper you called in, you figure it out. Why? Because you stepped back and had to look at the big picture to explain the issue.

So the "ask the duck on your desk" concept was born. The idea is to place a rubber duck on your desk and explain the problem to said duck before bothering your collegues, so that you can figure it out without disturbing anyone

Reading your post, it smells much the same.
So in that case, it's not the praying that helps you. It's the stepping back and the self-reflection that allows for it.

 

[PureX]

The question is.... is it the "praying" that does that, or is it the self-reflection and the stepping back and looking at the situation at hand that does it?

They are one and the same. The act of praying brings on the calm and clarity.

It's interesting actually... In the world of software engineering, we have this concept of "ask the duck on your desk".

When you are a stuck on a problem or bug you can't figure out... many developers ask their team mates for help to look at the problem together. But off course when you do that, you disturb your team mate and pull him of his own work. And many a time, when you call your team mate to come look at your screen, you'll actually figure out the problem by yourself merely by explaining it to your team mate. You might have been staring at your screen for more then an hour feeling totally stuck... and yet, after 20 sec of explaining the issue to helper you called in, you figure it out. Why? Because you stepped back and had to look at the big picture to explain the issue.

So the "ask the duck on your desk" concept was born. The idea is to place a rubber duck on your desk and explain the problem to said duck before bothering your collegues, so that you can figure it out without disturbing anyone

Reading your post, it smells much the same.
So in that case, it's not the praying that helps you. It's the stepping back and the self-reflection that allows for it.

The prayer is "asking the duck". You can't get the results without following the procedure. This is how prayer "works" for millions of people. The act of praying itself helps them to obtain the solution they were seeking.

 

[Quintessence]

The gods do not revolve around humanity. That is why it can be so meaningful when the universe/gods seems to do you a favor.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They are one and the same. The act of praying brings on the calm and clarity.

The prayer is "asking the duck". You can't get the results without following the procedure. This is how prayer "works" for millions of people. The act of praying itself helps them to obtain the solution they were seeking.

But it's misleading to then call it "praying". That term carries a lot of baggage. It implies a third party came in and helped you. The "duck" in my analogy. "god" in the mind of the theist.

But it's all you. So a better term would be self-reflection imo.
Praying, meditation, ask the duck,... they all have a base in common. And the actual "praying", "duck" or "meditation" part is of no consequence.

 

[PureX]

But it's misleading to then call it "praying". That term carries a lot of baggage.

Maybe that's your baggage. Maybe it's time you let go of it.

People need help. They pray, and through the act of praying they get some help. Why is this a problem for you?

It implies a third party came in and helped you. The "duck" in my analogy. "god" in the mind of the theist.

God, the duck, who cares? The process works. What do you care which icon they ask? What matters is that it helps them to ask it.

But it's all you. So a better term would be self-reflection imo.
Praying, meditation, ask the duck,... they all have a base in common. And the actual "praying", "duck" or "meditation" part is of no consequence.

It's a necessary part of the process. The icon gets us out of our own way, and consulting it helps us feel that we are in control again as we have an action to engage in, so we can think more clearly. We can't get the result without following the process, and consulting the icon is an important part of the process.

 

[RestlessSoul]

God said, "no" or "wait." How convenient.

And man said “God does not exist, because I didn’t get what I wanted.”

 

[ppp]

This is a good example of why something doesn't work. They never use it.

Reminds me of a verse: "Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap.” and then they wonder why they don’t have a harvest.

A response entirely worthy of a materialistic politico.

 

[Sand Dancer]

And man said “God does not exist, because I didn’t get what I wanted.”

What are we to think" “Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.” "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."

​

 

[JustGeorge]

My impression is that there are so many people praying that they're received something like a call center.

"Your prayer is very important to us. Please wait on the line. Prayers will be answered in the order in which they are received."

If that's the case, it would make more sense to pray to obscure deities. They have less calls to contend with.

 

[Left Coast]

When theists discuss prayer, their view consistently has a "heads God wins, tails you lose" quality. If you pray and you get what you prayed for: see! Prayer works. If you don't: well, there must have been something wrong with your prayer. Or God said no for some other inscrutable reason. It's a classic unfalsifiable belief.

 

[RestlessSoul]

What are we to think" “Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.” "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."

​

Well yes, a literal reading of certain Bible verses might lead one to think that the purpose of prayer is to present God with a shopping list of our wants. But aren’t we supposed to ask for His will, not ours, to be done?

 

[RestlessSoul]

When theists discuss prayer, their view consistently has a "heads God wins, tails you lose" quality. If you pray and you get what you prayed for: see! Prayer works. If you don't: well, there must have been something wrong with your prayer. Or God said no for some other inscrutable reason. It's a classic unfalsifiable belief.

You assume that the purpose of prayer is to have our demands satisfied.

With a little more spiritual maturity, one might consider that the purpose of prayer is to bring us closer to God, and to an understanding of His will for us.