That's one purpose of prayer, which the OP seemed to indicate was the point of the thread. There are other purposes, such as self-improvement and reflection, which I think are more useful.
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Answered Prayers
- Thread starter We Never Know
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That's one purpose of prayer, which the OP seemed to indicate was the point of the thread. There are other purposes, such as self-improvement and reflection, which I think are more useful.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
When I was a Christian, other Christians would tell me that I didn't pray properly, I prayed for the wrong things, I didn't have enough faith in God, and I had unrepented sins in my life that prevented God from answering my prayers. The vast majority of my prayers, however, were asking or pleading with God to help me better cope with my PTSD, which was the result of childhood trauma. I asked for mental stability and relief from the ever-persistent emotional pain. And when I was a child and teenager, I used to pray and ask or plead with God to stop the abuse I was suffering and protect me from my abusive mother and older brother, or I'd pray about the bullying and harassment I was suffering in school. Despite my prayers and my immense faith in God, all of my prayers went unanswered, and I suffered abuse for 13 1/2 years and was bullied and harassed for the 12 years I was in school (read my story here).
I was a devout Christian for thirty years and had genuinely believed in God for ten years before that, and I had never seen, experienced, or interacted with God. I knew and know plenty of Christians who claimed to feel his "presence" in their lives, but I never felt it, and it wasn't for a lack of trying either. In my case, believing in God by faith didn't exactly work out for me, nor did years of dedicated and earnest prayer to God. I don't want to disrupt the thread, so I'll post a link to a prior post where I further share my experience of renouncing my belief and faith in God and leaving Christianity. You may read it here.
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Perhaps I didn’t understand what you were trying to communicate.. My apologies.
Not really on multiple points...
1) Jesus said it, I didn't
2) We teach our children how to ask properly (or suppose to)
3) If my child would said repeatedly and incessantly “i want a dollar” he would get it. Just because to you repeat something over and over doesn’t mean you get it.
Remember… I am writing within the context of my signature. I’m just pointing out what I have learned and believed but not needful that all believe like me. If you have a better way, well “great”! Share it.
I could say we have a great control group (our church and churches like us) - and we get great results. I would first teach them how to pray and what to pray for in each situation.
If I did… would you agree with it?
There is some truth here and won’t argue those points. But I have found that it does go beyond the obvious limits of humankind
Altfish
Veteran Member
In simple terms, NO.
If I want my football team to win, I have a dice, if it rolls 5 or 6 they will win.
I roll a 5, they win ,,, therefore my dice can predict football results.
Well, no it can't there is a huge element of luck involved.
So true… you can take just one scripture at the expense of the whole thought presented and make it say something different. I believe Jesus said “your will be done” and not “my will be done”.
PureX
Veteran Member
Yes, but existence itself extends far beyond the obvious limits of mankind.
On another thread folks are discussing some kind of spiritual 'life force', which I think we can all acknowledge, exists. But the inference is that it must exist beyond the realm of physics and physical processes. And I keep wondering why it "must" do that?
If we were to witness Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, directly, would we have to assume that this event "must have" transcended the realm of physics? Seems to me that we would make just the opposite presumption: that it is in fact in keeping with the realm of physics, even if t clearly transcends OUR understand of it.
To me, prayer is no less of a "divine interaction" just because we came to understand the psychological mechanics of it. Yet this seems to be a big bias on the part of both theists and atheists, alike (though, to opposing ends).
I like to use this example: if I took an hallucinogenic drug and experienced a visit with Jesus, does the fact that I took the drug negate the reality of the experience? Or did my taking the drug ENABLE a real experience with Jesus? And how could any of us possibly tell which? In fact, why should we even presume to know either way?
If I pray for God to help me recover from a deadly disease, and the doctors come up with a miracle drug just in time to save me, does that mean God had nothing to do with it? Or did God act to heal me THROUGH the medical people? And how could I possibly determine which of these occurred? And why should I even be treating them as mutually exclusive possibilities?
I think these are the kinds of questions that can bring God INTO OUR REALITY. Instead of God just being some fantastic abstract ideal that remains forever aloof from the reality we live in.
I would respect the power of prayer even if I were an atheist. But then I could never be an atheist because I have no basis upon which to make that kind of determination. Similar to the drug-induced visit with Jesus.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
So god(s) don't heal broken bones, or feed the starving. But god(s) do answer prayers where we ask them to help us sell typewriters (as you've mentioned before as one of your answered prayers). Is that right?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Indeed. He prayed, during the agony in the garden, for the Father to take the cup from his lips, if it be thy will. The Father didn’t take the cup from him, but He did send an angel to comfort him. His prayer did not go unanswered.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
God, in my experience, heals broken souls. God can do for us, those things we cannot do for ourselves. But only if we are willing to place love for our fellows before our own selfish desires.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
In my experience, God doesn't heal broken bones or broken people. God didn't heal me or all the other former Christians I know from my survivors of childhood abuse support group or the other former Christians I've met elsewhere. Maybe God plays favorites, where he picks and chooses who he heals.
I think you misunderstood what is meant by baggage here. I believe that he's referring to the associations we make unconsciously with words like prayer, creation, and design, all of which invoke the notion of a god. Change them to contemplation, nature, and pattern, and the agency disappears from all of them.
Why do you think it's a problem for him or me or any other skeptic who believes that prayer is not answered? If my neighbor wants to dance around a tree in his back yard at midnight baying at the full moon while shaking a stick with a bloody chicken claw nailed to it in order to center himself and give his like meaning, that's fine, as long as he isn’t violently insane, sacrificing animals, and he keeps the noise down. Only is he fails at any of those things is he a problem.
Who says that but theists trying to demean atheists with hyperbole? Try again a little more honestly. My suggestion is hidden here:
Atheists reject god claims for lack of sufficient evidence for gods to justify belief, including evidence that prayer is inefficacious.
So does most of the rest of world that prays to the god of Abraham, as well as the rest of us who know them and hear them tell us what they are praying for.
So does the OP.
So does the poster who wrote, "If I pray for God to help me recover from a deadly disease" on this thread.
So does the believer who believes the promise that he can move mountains if a few gather and pray.
What is the so-called serenity prayer but "phoning" in an order for serenity, courage, and wisdom?
You suggested that the purpose of prayer need not be supplication, but that's what the word means to most, and is an example of the baggage that words carry. As soon as one says, "You should pray," the answer is "What shall I pray for?"
And another dose of your hyperbole using the word "demand," as if dissatisfied supplicants were demanding something.
That's one of the things I really love about practicing divination. I don't fuss over what one "believes" about divination - though the root of the term suggests divine guidance and inspiration. What matters is that divination is an excellent tool for self-improvement and reflection. I'm far more likely to take to tossing runes and sticks than prayer when I'm seeking guidance.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Sure, but which is it? There were not any disclaimers on some those. The Bible is great, but you have to choose which verses you like when there are conflicts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Almost makes one want to be an atheist.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We are supposed to ask that God's will be done, not for what we want. The shopping list of our wants is just silly.
I know that is in the Bible somewhere, since I watch TV shows where that theme comes across and the characters in the story are Christians.
It is also in the Baha'i prayers.
By Thy might! I ask not, whether sleeping or waking, but that which Thou dost desire. I am Thy servant and in Thy hands. Do Thou graciously aid me to do what will shed forth the fragrance of Thy good pleasure. This, truly, is my hope and the hope of them that enjoy near access to Thee. Praised be Thou, O Lord of the worlds!
Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262
I never pray for anything in particular, not unless I am desperate, like when my husband was dying of cancer, but even then I asked God that His Will be done; so if it was not God's Will to help him live, I would have accepted that. I did have to accept that.
ppp
Well-Known Member
This is just praying that nothing be any different from the way it was going to turn out to be whether you prayed or not.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, not exactly, because God can alter an impending fate if He chooses to do so.
God could also alter an irrevocable fate, but He never does, for the reasons stated below.
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.”
Note that the passage says it “can succeed,” not that it “will succeed.”
What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God... God doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.
ppp
Well-Known Member
A choice in altered by becoming aware of information or circumstances of which one is previously unaware.