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Answering Questions
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
Sheldon
Veteran Member
21 reasons Noah's flood never happened.
Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood
The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark
Flood geology (also creation geology or diluvial geology) is a pseudoscientific attempt to interpret and reconcile geological features of the Earth in accordance with a literal belief in the global flood described in Genesis 6–8.
There was no global flood, and the Noah myth is risible nonsense from start to finish. The scientific facts that have to be denied to believe otherwise are formidable, but the whole idea offends reason, and is of course entirely unevidenced.
“Entirely unevidenced”?
The fact of those ideal dimension ratios given of the Ark in Genesis — a ratio of 30:5:3 — that alone should give a person pause to reconsider and give the account some credibility.
But that’s certainly not all:
Flood Evidences — revised
nPeace
Veteran Member
Thank you.
I would like to quote you from here, in the thread I am creating. Is that okay with you?
No. I accept the knowledge that there is a creator, even though I do not have absolute proof of that knowledge.
n/a
?
Sure we do!
There are no natural mechanisms that can generate life! And origination of the myriad systems, including the 4 forces, that support it.
And tho naturalists May speak of how molecules may attract each other … attraction is a far cry from arrangement resulting in function! Design is observed everywhere.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I assume by absolute, that @AppieB is not referring to what we can be reasonably sure of.
However, we know there is evidence of a creator.
@Hockeycowboy I think what we are trying to do is establish a common ground, so that we can actually go somewhere.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
No I would not. Especially since the geological evidence alone, demonstrates unequivocally a global flood has not occurred. You might as well be giving the dimensions of Harry Potter's wand, and asserting it is evidence for wizardry.
There is no objective evidence in that post you linked, just pseudoscience and subjective claims.
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Sheldon
Veteran Member
You cannot possibly know that to be true. Though we do know that natural phenomena exist and are therefore possible. We have no objective evidence to support any supernatural causes, or for any deities, or that they are even possible.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Design is never objectively evidenced to occur in nature. We don't just infer design from not have an explanation for something, we can show something is designed by demonstrating sufficient objective evidence.
Only in trying to tie in the Flood with a Young Earth ideology, which I don’t. (YEC is foolish)
To say the Flood laid down strata, is erroneous.
But, to conclude that the Noachian Flood cut through said strata, thereby exposing the layers within the Grand Canyon, is an explanation that fits the evidence.
No Colorado River, alone, accounts for the 1000sq.mi. of it’s missing volume. A Flood does.
LOL! Maybe you really can’t grasp how unconnected and inane your analogy is....
The Ark’s dimensions, 30:5:3, work.
How quickly you forget...
Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia
Times a million....
You can keep your head in the sand all you want. Too many rational people have experienced too many similar supernatural phenomena, for me to assume it was ‘all in their mind’. I’m not that naïve.
Please! The properties of water by themselves are enough to conclude it’s designed to enable life.
Let alone the integrated balance we observe in living systems!
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Irrelevant, science does not support or evidence any global flood.
There is no geological evidence in the formation of the Grand canyon for a global flood, and such a flood would necessarily be evidenced GLOBALLY anyway.
More likely that you don't so it accurately reflects how inane your claim is, so you just don't like the comparison.
Nope, the "study" is nonsense, as it involves multiple assumptions. However even if if the bible contained a blueprint for a ship in absolute detail, and it worked, and we couldn't explain how they knew this, it would not be evidence for a global flood, obviously. However that is not the case, they bible doesn't contain any "design", just broad measurements. They don't even know what it was made from, and the fact they've concocted some pseudoscience to show something floats, doesn't come close to evidence it would work in accommodating millions of diverse species, and their nutritional requirements for almost a year.
I have no idea what relevance you think that ghost story has here?
Really irrational ad hominem, not very compelling.
Wow, you've managed to use an argumentum ad populum fallacy and a straw man fallacy in single sentence, kudos.
That's not objective evidence, it's just a bare subjective claim?
AppieB
Active Member
Sure, as long as it's not misused of taken out of context.
But when it comes to science, it seems you want there to be 100% certainty (no doubt). I've explained that 100% certainty or absolute certainty can't be given in science. And I don't think it needs be in order to be reaonable to accept a certain fact or scientific theory.
It seems like you hold a different standard to your personal beliefs about a god than scientific facts and theories. If I'm wrong, please elaborate.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Ah, you've abandoned your pervious citation without any pretence you can further defend it, duly noted. Now leap to another peace of floating jetsam from the sinking ship of this risible myth. Sadly this brief citation appears to be another you have just Googled, and failed to bother reading.
"While it is a separate matter whether all of the animals would physically fit inside an ark of these dimensions, the physics students concluded that, based on the buoyancy of the structure alone, the concept of ‘two of every animal’ boarding Noah’s ark is theoretically possible."
Some people might think all those animals not fitting into the ark would be a problem, you seem unhindered by such concerns, quelle surprise.
Again since the bible gives only basic dimensions, and no design, this is a truthful but meaningless conclusion, as was previously pointed out to you. Since firstly they don't know that all those animals would fit, note the emboldened part of your own link you obviously didn't read, and the paper you linked is obviously talking about displacement, but can say nothing about any design, SINCE THERE IS NO BIBLICAL DESIGN to test. More importantly there is no geological evidence for a global flood, so you can cite as many model boat stories as you want, they are meaningless, and irrelevant since there is no scientific evidence for a global flood. Like your risible rhetoric about weathering on mountains, to refute the scientific fact of their relative ages. Or your ignorance of how mountain ranges are formed by tectonic plate shift, and not as you claimed "water surging up from underground springs", which was pretty funny, albeit unintentionally so.
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I have begun a search in locating Dr. Seok Won Hong, to get verification of that experiment.
But suffice it to say… The combined evidences are overwhelming! I don’t rely on just one.
I guess you feel it necessary to resort to Ad homs. Doesn’t say much for the strength of your argument.
First, learn what the Bible says about the Account. Some of the arguments presented are straw men, and I’m tired of repeating myself.
From now on, I’ll only debate and reason with those who display a knowledge of the Bible’s description of the Event…. Because I’m pretty sure that everything else, disputation that is, has already been addressed throughout the thread.
Elucidate yourselves.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I don't want science to be anything other than what science is.
I think Atheists want science to be what it is not.
i.e. a fairy tale can be science. It doesn't have to be demonstrated, and freedom to add untestable ideas on to what is demonstrated.
I have no problem with you believing what you want, but why do you have a problem with me believing what I do?
Is there something you want to know? Do you have a question? Feel free to ask.
If I have already answered, I'll let you know.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Verification won't help, they had no design, which part of this is hard to understand?
They are indeed, and they all entirely falsify the Noah flood myth
I have not used any ad hominem, but please do quote where you think I have.
It doesn't really matter about the specific of this plagiarised flood myth, as the geological evidence alone is enough to falsify it and demonstrate that there has been no global flood.
You may do as you are minded to of course, I understand the urge to protect cherished beliefs from critical scrutiny, though why you'd bother with debate at all in that case is rather baffling.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Well unlike you I can't speak for millions of atheists of course, but I certainly want no such thing, and I suspect you are simply projecting.
That's nonsense.
Could you quote an atheist who has tried to tell you what you can and cannot believe? This is a debate forum, if you don't want debate, there are multiple religious forums on this site that offer religious discussion without debate.
What, if any, objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity or deities?
AppieB
Active Member
Me too.
Well, then I think you don't understand what science is; you're describing the opposite of science.
Natural science - Wikipedia
Where did I say I have a problem with you believing what you do? You opened this thread called "Answering Questions". I'm asking questions and you are answering them. And if you have questions for me I'm happy to answer them too.
Ok, let's talk abou science again.Is there something you want to know? Do you have a question? Feel free to ask.
If I have already answered, I'll let you know.
1. Do you hold the believe that science is only valuable or reasonable to accept when there is "no doubt" and 100% certainty?
2. Is "no doubt" and 100% certainty the same as "absolute certainty" to you?
3. If not, can you explain what the difference is?
4. If so, why do you hold a different standard to science than you hold to you personal believe in a god?
joelr
Well-Known Member
Genesis as a whole uses mostly Mesopotamian myths. Bothe creation stories mirror the 2 Mesopotamian creation myths and Noah is written based on the Epic of Gilamesh. You do realize that people knew how to build boats when the story was written?
Noah - Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting- place she returned.
Noah - And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;
Noah - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
Gimamesh - , I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice.
Noah - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gimamesh - “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how could you so senselessly bring down the flood? Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression, Punish him a little when he breaks loose, Do not drive him too hard or he perishes; Would that a lion had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that famine had wasted the world Rather than the flood, Would that pestilence had wasted mankind Rather than the flood
Gilamesh - ‘For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;
Noah - And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Noah - Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
-It expounds themes parallel to those in Mesopotamian mythology,
-Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology
-Genesis 1–11 as a whole is imbued with Mesopotamian myths.
-Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic – parallels that in fact extend throughout Genesis 2–11, from the Creation to the Flood and its aftermath
-Scholars do not consider Genesis to be historically accurate.
Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia
Gilamesh - ‘In the first light of dawn all my household gathered round me, the children brought pitch and the men whatever was necessary. On the fifth day I laid the keel and the ribs, then I made fast the planking. The ground-space was one acre, each side of the deck measured one hundred and twenty cubits, making a square. I built six decks below, seven in all, I divided them into nine sections with bulkheads between. I drove in wedges where needed, I saw to the punt-poles, and laid in supplies. The carriers brought oil in baskets, I poured pitch into the furnace and asphalt and oil; more oil was consumed in caulking, and more again the master of the boat took into his stores. I slaughtered bullocks for the people and every day I killed sheep. I gave the shipwrights wine to drink as though it were river water, raw wine and red wine and oil and white wine. There was feasting then as there is at the time of the New Year’s festival; I myself anointed my head. On the seventh day the boat was complete. ‘
Noah - And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
Gilamesh - Gilgamesh, the son of Ninsun, lies in the tomb.