Anti-gay baker now takes stand against birthdays for trans people

[Kangaroo Feathers]

How so?

It's not my interpretation. The scriptures interpret themselves and according to the Bible there is only one race...the human race.

is what you said. "All people are imperfect so their interpretation or understanding will vary, " demonstrates the problem with your claim.

 

[74x12]

No, it show's you're unwilling to apply logic to this issue. If you acknowledge it's wrong to discriminate against one group for their basic state of being, you should be able to see it's wrong to do so for any. To do anything else requires special pleading or cherry picking.

First of all the baker is not discriminating against transgenders. He doesn't want to bake that particular cake for the customer. So if a black person came into his bakery and wanted him to make a cake about Halloween(one other thing he is against) then is he discriminating against black people if he says no? No, he's against participating in Halloween. He's just not going to do it. And that's why I say liberals are just picking on him because he's vulnerable. He's not going to do it.

 

[74x12]

I've decided to start a religion that believes God wishes me to round up to the nearest dollar on every credit or debit transaction. The universal sign for agreeance with this principle will be handing me a plastic rectangle roughly 1mm thick with cryptic symbols stamped into it. Thus, I will know my customers respect my religious freedom in this regard.

Your argument is a straw man.

As long as you let customers know then I don't see the problem. They can take their business elsewhere if they don't like it. But you want to hide the fact you're doing it from your customers. This baker isn't hiding anything.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

First of all the baker is not discriminating against transgenders. He doesn't want to bake that particular cake for the customer.

...because the customer is transgendered. That's... kinda the point

So if a black person came into his bakery and wanted him to make a cake about Halloween(one other thing he is against) then is he discriminating against black people if he says no? No, he's against participating in Halloween. He's just not going to do it.

If he doesn't make Halloween cakes AT ALL, then no, he's not discriminating against anyone. If he happily makes Halloween cakes for other customers, but refuses to sell one to a black person, that IS discrimination.

So, does the baker regularly make birthday cakes or not?

And that's why I say liberals are just picking on him because he's vulnerable. He's not going to do it.

It's not an issue of liberals, it's an issue of following well established principles of law and fairness. He's being "picked on" because he's acting in an illegal manner against people whom society is more and more realising need protection from precisely this sort of behavior.

 

[InChrist]

And they would say your interpretation is not Biblical, and argue the Bible does state there are multiple races of human. After all, where did all those people in Genesis come from if we only started with Adam and Eve? Was the Land of Nod occupied by others before Cain and it not recorded in the Bible? The Bible also states there were Nephilim. And, of course, it states over and over that the Jews are "god's chosen people." And there is clearly a preference--and even mandate for the Jews--for marrying within their own tribes (this is especially common in Christian views that prohibit interracial marriage).

There is no reason to assume that all humans are not descended for Adam and Eve, Eve is said to be the "mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20) or that there were others around not descended from Adam and Eve. The idea that there were other people or races conflicts with too many scriptures referencing the human race.
Does the Bible say anything about a pre-Adamic race?

The prohibition for the children of Israel against marriage outside of Israel was for a specific purpose and time. The nation of Israel and the Jews were chose to bring forth the Messiah/Savior, therefore prior to His birth the nation and people were set apart. So this was not a prohibition against interracial marriage itself. It is erroneous for "Christians" to use a commandment that was specifically given to Israel for a specific purpose and time frame and try to claim interracial marriage is prohibited.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Your argument is a straw man.

As long as you let customers know then I don't see the problem. They can take their business elsewhere if they don't like it. But you want to hide the fact you're doing it from your customers. This baker isn't hiding anything.

A big sign in front of the shop saying "no coloureds allowed" doesn't make it OK.

As for taking their business elsewhere, the point is that people shouldn't have to take their business elsewhere because of fundamental aspects of their being that they can't change. Maybe it sounds reasonable if you live in cake central, with world class bakers on every corner, vying for your business. What if the only competent baker for 50kms in any direction is this guy? It's reasonable that someone should go elsewhere then?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

There is no reason to assume that all humans are not descended for Adam and Eve,

Other than, you know, genetics, archaeology, anthropology, palaeontology, and population growth analysis. But other than them, sure, no reason at all.

 

[InChrist]

is what you said. "All people are imperfect so their interpretation or understanding will vary, " demonstrates the problem with your claim.

My actual claim is that God has an intended interpretation and the scriptures do interpret themselves. Those who seek His interpretation, submitting their ideas to His will over time have their thoughts conformed to His interpretation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is no reason to assume that all humans are not descended for Adam and Eve, Eve is said to be the "mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20) or that there were others around not descended from Adam and Eve. The idea that there were other people or races conflicts with too many scriptures referencing the human race.
Does the Bible say anything about a pre-Adamic race?

The Bible does indeed say, more than once, there were Nephilim, a cross between "sons of God" and "daughters of men" (Genesis 6:4). And saying there was no one else does not answer the question of where did Cain's wife come from, and who was she? Genesis does jump, and suddenly, to a world of only four people to a world that is inexplicably inhabited by many others.

It is erroneous for "Christians" to use a commandment that was specifically given to Israel for a specific purpose and time frame and try to claim interracial marriage is prohibited.

That is your interpretation and believe. A good number still uphold such views and frown upon interracial marriage because the Bible is pretty strict when it comes to staying within your own tribe.

 

[ecco]

...

the questions are whether it is legal discrimination and in principle if it is a discrimination it is proper to use government force to stop.

What is the purpose of laws? That you don't like some of them is completely meaningless.

We all discriminate all of the time, most of it isn't illegal and some discrimination is a clear good.

I prefer cats to dogs. If that's the kind of discrimination you are referring to, OK. If not, then no, "we all" do not discriminate all the time.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

My actual claim is that God has an intended interpretation and the scriptures do interpret themselves. Those who seek His interpretation, submitting their ideas to His will over time have their thoughts conformed to His interpretation.

And we're back to the half a million Christian denominations, plus Jews and Muslims, all of whom claim to have done just that.

God may well have intended one particular understanding of scripture, but there's no objective way to know what that actual understanding is. Hence my point. You have your interpretation, many people disagree with you. Everyone has arguments for and against why any given interpretation is the correct one Now, some interpretations of scripture are more likely to be correct, based on scholarship and contextual understanding, but ultimately, there's no way to objectively and definitively tell who is "right". There can only ever be what we believe is "right'.

 

[74x12]

...because the customer is transgendered. That's... kinda the point

Nope, the customer indicated that the cake was to be designed to celebrate their life decision of being a transgender. That is apparently what set off the whole thing with the Baker who is quite touchy about such things. Big deal.

A big sign in front of the shop saying "no coloureds allowed" doesn't make it OK.

As for taking their business elsewhere, the point is that people shouldn't have to take their business elsewhere because of fundamental aspects of their being that they can't change. Maybe it sounds reasonable if you live in cake central, with world class bakers on every corner, vying for your business. What if the only competent baker for 50kms in any direction is this guy? It's reasonable that someone should go elsewhere then?

Again a straw man because this baker is not against transgenders using his bakery shop. He doesn't need or want a sign saying "No transgenders allowed." He is just against personally condoning their lifestyle. Because he believes he is not allowed to do that.

 

[ecco]

You have your interpretation...

Everyone has their own interpretation and it is the right interpretation, just ask them.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Nope, the customer indicated that the cake was to be designed to celebrate their life decision of being a transgender. That is apparently what set off the whole thing with the Baker who is quite touchy about such things. Big deal.

Which is different to what I said... how?

Again a straw man because this baker is not against transgenders using his bakery shop. He doesn't need or want a sign saying "No transgenders allowed." He is just against personally condoning their lifestyle. Because he believes he is not allowed to do that.

If he refuses to sell to transgendered people, that is being "against transgenders using his bakery shop.". I'm really not seeing how you rationalise this as anything else.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope, the customer indicated that the cake was to be designed to celebrate their life decision of being a transgender. That is apparently what set off the whole thing with the Baker who is quite touchy about such things. Big deal.


Again a straw man because this baker is not against transgenders using his bakery shop. He doesn't need or want a sign saying "No transgenders allowed." He is just against personally condoning their lifestyle. Because he believes he is not allowed to do that.

It is rather hypocritical to complain of a strawman in your post while starting your post with a strawman argument.

 

[InChrist]

The Bible does indeed say, more than once, there were Nephilim, a cross between "sons of God" and "daughters of men" (Genesis 6:4). And saying there was no one else does not answer the question of where did Cain's wife come from, and who was she? Genesis does jump, and suddenly, to a world of only four people to a world that is inexplicably inhabited by many others.

Who / what were the Nephilim?
Who / what were the Nephilim?

Cain's wife was one of Adam and Eve's many daughters or granddaughters by the time Cain married.

"Adam was almost 130 years old by the time that Cain killed Abel (Adam had Seth, his next son after Abel’s death, when he was about 130 years old; Genesis 4:25; 5:3). And we know that Adam had sons and daughters (Genesis 5:3). At 130 he could have had grandkids and great-grandkids by the time that Cain killed Abel. Cain had plenty of family members to be afraid of after killing his brother.

Cain apparently married a family member (a necessity back then) at some point before Abel’s murder. It seems odd to us today, but incest wasn’t outlawed by God until the Law of Moses. It may have been around that time that generations of degenerative genetic mutations began to take a toll on our DNA. God outlawed incest for our protection. " Does the Bible say anything about a pre-Adamic race?

That is your interpretation and believe. A good number still uphold such views and frown upon interracial marriage because the Bible is pretty strict when it comes to staying within your own tribe.

A good number may frown upon interracial, but the Bible does not support such a view or say anything that would require all people to stay within their own tribe. The only requirement in the scriptures for marriage for Christians is that it be between believers and a man and woman. Race is irrelevant because the human race is one race in God's eyes....red, yellow, black or white or any color in between.

 

[Sir Doom]

Your argument is a straw man.

It's a slippery slope, actually.

As long as you let customers know then I don't see the problem. They can take their business elsewhere if they don't like it. But you want to hide the fact you're doing it from your customers. This baker isn't hiding anything.

So, armbands it is?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Cain's wife was one of Adam and Eve's many daughters or granddaughters by the time Cain married.

The Bible doesn't support this claim, and it is assumed.

Cain apparently married a family member (a necessity back then) at some point before Abel’s murder.

Again, this is assumed and not supported in the Bible.

The only requirement in the scriptures for marriage for Christians is that it be between believers and a man and woman.

And yet many Christians would consider that as unimportant, unnecessary, and unChristian.

 

[Mister Emu]

If he doesn't make Halloween cakes AT ALL, then no, he's not discriminating against anyone. If he happily makes Halloween cakes for other customers, but refuses to sell one to a black person, that IS discrimination.

I very much doubt he makes transition celebration cakes for anyone else.

What is the purpose of laws?

To provide official remedy for violations of rights via recompense and/or punishment.

I prefer cats to dogs. If that's the kind of discrimination you are referring to, OK. If not, then no, "we all" do not discriminate all the time.

You discriminate with who you will spend your time around, who is a potential romantic partner, if you hire you discriminate in choosing who is acceptable for work, businesses are discriminant in who they allow as patrons.

We discriminate in nearly all aspects of our life.

 

[Sir Doom]

I can appreciate the nuance of the situation, and I am being very black and white in my explanation but this is an issue of freedom. I do understand how it may seem appropriate to protect the baker's religious freedom on this issue. However, the customer's is equally important. It is unreasonable (in my opinion) to expect a consumer to conform to hitherto unknown religious guidance before purchasing pastry (or anything else, obviously).

It is not unreasonable (again in my opinion) to expect a commercial pastry company licensed in a secular Nation to bake and/or sell product to people who do not conform to their religious ideals.

The loss of freedom in this case seems black and white to me. The baker is in the wrong. I will fight for his right to put a big 8 foot bloody Jesus on the cross in the parking lot of his store but he can't deny legal tender based on someone else's religious difference.

Let me be clear. It makes absolutely no difference what religious persuasion the transgender person is, it is obvious that religious persuasion sees no negative connotation to transgenderness. Thus, refusing service based on the baker's personal religious preference is in effect discriminating against the religious preference of the customer. The baker of cakes gets to bake cakes regardless of the customers religion, but the customer is left cakeless specifically because of their religion.