Anti-gay baker now takes stand against birthdays for trans people

[Shadow Wolf]

We discriminate in nearly all aspects of our life.

There is a major huge difference between me preferring to not spend my time with fundamentalist Christians and if I were to refuse to work with a fundamental Christian over ideological differences. And, guess what? When it comes to hiring, there is a laundry list of categories that employers are prohibited from discriminating against. With public services, there are laws prohibiting discrimination. In a number of fields any and all discrimination is prohibited (such as, a Christian firefighter cannot refuse to serve a Satanist, Atheist, homosexual, or transsexual who's house is on fire).

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I very much doubt he makes transition celebration cakes for anyone else.

Why am I not surprised at your deliberate misconstrual of the issue?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

AGAIN- he did not refuse to serve anyone, he refused to be forced into creating something that went against his beliefs. Here's a perfect example: I refused to perform the song "Brown Sugar" by the Rolling Stones after I read the lyrics. Should I be forced into doing this song simply because some one demands it?

It depends. If you were a DJ and you promoted yourself to play songs by request, and someone (trans or not) asked you to play Brown Sugar, by the nature of your job, it's your responsibility to play any song that clubber asks. Unless your manager and club policy says X songs as a group aren't allowed there is no personal choice but the choice of the business.

To keep your job, yeah, your need to play Brown Sugar.

When I go skating we ask the DJ to play X songs because it's adult night so we hear songs from 70s and 80s. But because the nature of the club also invited children at other times, there are sexual and curse related songs we can't chose to play. While the DJ may disagree with his managers choice, he who miles curse

He means that it is one thing to discriminate between songs and another to discriminate between people.
It is one thing to refuse to play "Brown Sugar" by the Rolling Stones ( you were discriminating between songs ), and it is another to be fine playing it for everyone but me ( you would be discriminating between people ).

...and, that would mean in the former its better to say to his costumers, he choses not to play Brown Sugar rather than not mentioning this choice until someone else asks him and he denies playing it because of the person rather than his opinion about the song himself.

@BSM1

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Bluntly, I fear the whole T situation is a money maker for surgeons, therapists and drug makers. I think a lot of folk who are told they are T perhaps just need some validation, some real friends. I've been told that lots of T folk are somewhere along the Autism spectrum. Lots of T folk have been rejected and taken advantage of and the suicide rate is still over 40% even post surgery. Hiding is a personal choice. Somehow, it seems someone always finds out and tells.

Ha. Okay... I was wondering if you actually believe this.

I am being a bit bias, but maybe you do because of age??

A lot of bias opinions then have been proved wrong or updated since. For example, we (LGBTQ) back in the 1960s were believed to have mental illnesses. People today still feel we have a choice.

A lot of LGBTQ arent going to therapy for that because they are coming to terms with their and our sexuality which straight people do as well as non-trans during their childhood. Usually, you go to therapists and doctors when there are multiple things wrong.

For example, nowadays, one doesnt go to a therapist just because they are biologically attracted to same-sex or in this case have a gene switch to where gender isnt aligned with ones sex. They go for psychological conditions regardless their orientation or identity.

While many people do make money off their clients, their clients arent specifically just LGBTQ. I dont see how they would make more money with us compared to others anyway, so how did you connect the two??

 

[leroy]

Last year:



This year:

Jack Phillips is suing after getting in trouble for refusing to make a birthday cake for a trans woman.

Christian Baker: Making a Birthday Cake for a Trans Woman Violates My Faith

Richard Dawkins refused to debate with William lame Creig on the existence of God...

Should we force Dawkins to debate with WLC, ? ...Or should we accept that Dawkins is a free individual and can freely decide if he what's to participate in a debate or not.

Why can't the bakery freely decide? why can't he decide whether if he what's to bake the cake or not ?

In my opinion both the bakery and Dawkins are wrong, and have no justification for their refusals.... But as a liberal I have to accept the fact that some people will do/say things that I would consider stupid.

 

[BSM1]

It depends. If you were a DJ and you promoted yourself to play songs by request, and someone (trans or not) asked you to play Brown Sugar, by the nature of your job, it's your responsibility to play any song that clubber asks. Unless your manager and club policy says X songs as a group aren't allowed there is no personal choice but the choice of the business.

To keep your job, yeah, your need to play Brown Sugar.

When I go skating we ask the DJ to play X songs because it's adult night so we hear songs from 70s and 80s. But because the nature of the club also invited children at other times, there are sexual and curse related songs we can't chose to play. While the DJ may disagree with his managers choice, he who miles curse


...and, that would mean in the former its better to say to his costumers, he choses not to play Brown Sugar rather than not mentioning this choice until someone else asks him and he denies playing it because of the person rather than his opinion about the song himself.

@BSM1

But you are assuming that Brown Sugar would be on my submitted set list (which it would not). There are many songs that have been requested that I can't or won't play for whatever reason. I do not normally take requests, and if this offends you then I understand and accept your choice of going elsewhere. However, you do not have the right to force me to do a song no matter what the circumstance.

 

[sojourner]

This just shows your ignorance of the issues.

I’ve been involved in human rights issues for the last 15 years. I understand them only too well. You would have us treat this minority group in the same way we’ve historically treated minority groups: by separating them out from the rest of society and refusing them full participation. (Like being able to get married without a hassle from self-righteous bakers and county clerks). Don’t think it’s the same thing? Check out this link:

 

[Willamena]

You discriminate with who you will spend your time around, who is a potential romantic partner, if you hire you discriminate in choosing who is acceptable for work, businesses are discriminant in who they allow as patrons.

We discriminate in nearly all aspects of our life.

It's the difference, though, between contexts.

 

[suncowiam]

I'm not complaining our whining. I will defend those who are being bullied by liberals.

But you're defending the right to bully homosexuals?

What is it about homosexuals that they can't even have a cake be made for them? What logic is this coming from?

My example of a doctor was just an example. I don't support that scenario where doctors can choose their patients. It was just to show you the slippery slope that you're on.

So in fact, when I defend homosexuals I'm actually defending more than homosexuals, and that includes religious people. Stop ALL discrimination.

 

[Shad]

Your assumption is incorrect, all evidence points to gender dysphoria being immutable at the sort of age where one might buy their own cake. I even clarified how the current refusal could be shown to be that sort of discrimination.

Sorry I misunderstood as I used religion as comparison in earlier posts to TG in regard to business and services.

 

[BSM1]

But you're defending the right to bully homosexuals?

What is it about homosexuals that they can't even have a cake be made for them? What logic is this coming from?

My example of a doctor was just an example. I don't support that scenario where doctors can choose their patients. It was just to show you the slippery slope that you're on.

So in fact, when I defend homosexuals I'm actually defending more than homosexuals, and that includes religious people. Stop ALL discrimination.

Why shouldn't doctors be allowed to choose their patients? Are you saying that we should force a doctor to see a chronic meth head trying to get drugs when his time can be better spent seeing and treating someone who really wants to be helped? Slippery slope, indeed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not complaining our whining. I will defend those who are being bullied by liberals.

How is this bullying?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Why shouldn't doctors be allowed to choose their patients? Are you saying that we should force a doctor to see a chronic meth head trying to get drugs when his time can be better spent seeing and treating someone who really wants to be helped? Slippery slope, indeed.

Transgender people equate to chronic methheads in your analogy?

 

[Shad]

As a general comment about this topic, I have to say that it's truly amazing that this thread less than 24 hours old, yet already up to 12 pages and over 200 posts. This is one of those issues where I think of the phrase "only in America could something like this be a major issue."

There are many people who don't even have enough to eat at all, yet everyone is worried about cake.

As for the baker and his supporters, I honestly don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with their religious convictions. Realizing that religious texts contain many lists of infractions and sins - and the fact that there are so many "sinners" out there of every variety - one has to wonder why they're so selective about what sins they'll oppose and which ones they'll let go.

On the other side of it, I'm sure there are plenty of bakers who would be more than willing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples. It's also possible to still get married without a wedding cake; it's just a luxury and an affectation - it's not absolutely necessary. So, the refusal to sell a wedding cake does not, in and of itself, prevent the couple from getting married.

So, there's one or two bakers out there who apparently have a problem with gay people and don't want to sell them cake. Sure it's blatant discrimination, and I'm sure a righteous grievance and a case can be made against them.

But why pick this particular battle? After seeing the video above with a camera crew with the "fake lesbians" going into a shop to order a cake, it makes me think there are those who are actively looking behind every bush and under every rock - trying to find someone who doesn't conform. ("Aha! We got one!") My understanding is that the transwoman in this case deliberately chose that cake shop just to make a point - or perhaps to gain attention or stir up unnecessary drama which America doesn't really need more of right now.

There is a part of the TG community that seeks validation over tolerance. This could be a case as the baker is known in the news. Bakers are a prime target as many of the services provided are within a gray area between religion and other views. It's not like someone is going to a grocery store and declaring "This bag of oranges is for a TG bday."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope, the customer indicated that the cake was to be designed to celebrate their life decision of being a transgender. That is apparently what set off the whole thing with the Baker who is quite touchy about such things. Big deal.

All she asked for was a pink cake with blue icing. They advertise themselves as happy to do this sort of thing.

Again a straw man because this baker is not against transgenders using his bakery shop. He doesn't need or want a sign saying "No transgenders allowed." He is just against personally condoning their lifestyle. Because he believes he is not allowed to do that.

Yet he keeps a business going that’s required by law to practice proper public accommodation. Apparently, he doesn’t care enough about his beliefs to resolve the conflict, despite being freely able to do so.

There’s nothing stopping him from getting some other job and spending all his spare time making and displaying anti-LGBTQ cakes if that’s what he wants to do. This isn’t an issue of free speech or religious freedom; it’s an issue of commerce.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

For example, nowadays, one doesnt go to a therapist just because they are biologically attracted to same-sex or in this case have a gene switch to where gender isnt aligned with ones sex.

Actually we do have to go to a therapist for letters of recommendation for hormones and any surgeries.

 

[Mister Emu]

As for the baker and his supporters, I honestly don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with their religious convictions.

Well, it isn't my religious convictions that lead me to support him, but my belief that religious convictions should be protected for creators. I should not have to create something for a purpose that violates my religious convictions, and neither should anyone else.

Why am I not surprised at your deliberate misconstrual of the issue?

And I'm not surprised people are outright maliciously lying by saying he refused to make a birthday cake. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Stop ALL discrimination.

Don't be absurd. Firefighting outfits shouldn't discriminate in hiring based on physical capability? Hospitals should just hire anyone whether or not they've gone through medical school?

I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant, but it is what you've said.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nope, the customer indicated that the cake was to be designed to celebrate their life decision of being a transgender.

It's not a "life decision." We don't chose to be this way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I should not have to create something for a purpose that violates my religious convictions, and neither should anyone else.

Then he shouldn't put himself into such a position if it's going to cause that big of an issue. This is just basic "finding work 101." Do you think anyone is going to give a damn if a Hindu is hired at McDonalds and then refuses to do anything touching hamburgers because it goes against Hindu religious beliefs? No, of course not, and they would harp on about the Conservative idea of "personal accountability" and "having a job to do" and "it's not like they are having to eat the beef."

And I'm not surprised people are outright maliciously lying by saying he refused to make a birthday cake. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not surprised you haven't attempted to understand this issue in that it isn't uncommon for a transgender person to celebrate a birthday that isn't on the day they were physically born, but rather a day when they are born into a new life free of the self-shame and guilt and that society demands we feel over being who we are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There’s nothing stopping him from getting some other job and spending all his spare time making and displaying anti-LGBTQ cakes if that’s what he wants to do. This isn’t an issue of free speech or religious freedom; it’s an issue of commerce.

It's lovely how "personal accountability" and "making smart decisions" are thing Conservatives love to level at others while they themselves suck at these things. Myself, I applied for a slaughter house once, was offered the position, walked outside and heard the pigs and saw the trailer they were herded into shaking around, and I had to turn around, walk back in, and declined the position because I just couldn't do it. It was that easy. It was something that ate at my conscience like acid, so instead of exposing myself to it and making silly demands to revolve around my own discomfort, because it was a "matter of conscience" I found employment elsewhere. Literally, it was that easy and it avoided such silly news stories of someone being a flaky snowflake and expecting the entire world to cater to their every whim.