Anti semitisam

[outhouse]

The latter is not anti-semitism, its directed equally at all religions as well as the non-religious.

Exactly.

My point is that its not as much about religion as cultural differences.

 

[rosends]

I never stated such, had IO had an idea even close to that you would know.

Your sticking up for a small minority faith not followed by most Jews.

Then you miss the point. Anti-Semitic attacks have happened to people and places who are not Orthodox. Your claim that it only happens to a small group because they are Orthodox is proven false.

I did not say that. Do you feed on negative attention? Could we use this as an example of why the orthodox see more stereotypes ?

You said, and I quote, "I think orthodox Jews bring trouble on themselves due to the higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism required over typical Judaism..." Let's ignore, for a moment your notion of fanaticism and fundamentalism. You clearly don't know what Orthodox Judaism is or requires or how it manifests itself. But let's just say, for argument's sake, that somehow, everyone considering himself a Orthodox Jew had some outward sign and constant practice which set him aside. You just said that having a belief and being different "brings trouble on themselves." Do you also believe that a woman walking around in clothing which shows she's a woman means that she brings sexist remarks and assault on herself?

And asking if I feed on negative attention? Where is that from? Because you deny that it exists and I can point out that it does means I feed on it? How do you even come up with that?

 

[rosends]

Do you know what a statistic is?

Sure, it is a word which has no relationship to the word "typical" or the arbitrary label of "typical Jew." Do you have any idea what "Orthodox" mean?

My point is, its about being different and not wanting to fit into a culture.

Have you ever met me? Can you tell me, sight unseen, how I don't want to fit into a culture? And how that "not wanting to fit in" means that I bring trouble onto myself? Please, I'd love to hear you explain this. I'm just living a life, but you, you clearly, understand more deeply without living it or knowing what I do and who I am.

 

[rosends]

The latter is not anti-semitism, its directed equally at all religions as well as the non-religious.

That's an interesting point. Being "pro" one religion doesn't mean, necessarily, being anti all the others you exclude. I was thinking of it in concert with other prevailing attitudes (for an interesting discussion of the institutionalizing of anti-Semitism in schools, try this).

 

[rosends]

Exactly.

My point is that its not as much about religion as cultural differences.

and what culture do you have in mind?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Why is there anti semitisam in the world today

Because it never went away?

 

[columbus]

The word means precisely what the word means, still.

My whole point is that "antisemitism" doesn't have a precise meaning.
Partly because "Jew" doesn't have a precise meaning. Partly because not all Semitic people are Jewish in any way. The word is an ignorant word coined by anti Jewish Europeans over a century ago, apparently to put a veneer of rationality over some ugly bigotry. It had nothing to do with Zionism at the time, because Zionism barely qualified as a pipe dream.

Maybe the best method now would be to ask you what you think "anti-Semitism" means as distinct from "anti-Judaism" and show me the etymological and sociological track taken to substantiate that.

The current reality is that the word often gets applied to any criticism of Israeli or Zionist policies or behavior. That meaning is not some freakish anomaly, I've watched it used right here on RF. I believe that the reason some of the more virulent Zionists put me on ignore was because I criticized Israel and it was easier call me antisemitic and put me on ignore than discuss the issues.

Tom

 

[rosends]

My whole point is that "antisemitism" doesn't have a precise meaning.
Partly because "Jew" doesn't have a precise meaning. Partly because not all Semitic people are Jewish in any way. The word is an ignorant word coined by anti Jewish Europeans over a century ago, apparently to put a veneer of rationality over some ugly bigotry. It had nothing to do with Zionism at the time, because Zionism barely qualified as a pipe dream.

But that's a bizarre and unsubstantiated assertion. Both the word "anti-Semitism" and "Jew" have precise meanings. Just because you don't know or like them doesn't mean they don't exist. The term anti-Semitism wasn't crafted to be about "Semitic people" and that hasn't changed. And Zionism, even modern political Zionism, developed at the same time as the emergence of the word, though they are unrelated. So the "pipe dream" comment is historically inaccurate.

The current reality is that the word often gets applied to any criticism of Israeli or Zionist policies or behavior. That meaning is not some freakish anomaly, I've watched it used right here on RF. I believe that the reason some of the more virulent Zionists put me on ignore was because I criticized Israel and it was easier call me antisemitic and put me on ignore than discuss the issues.

Tom

No, the current reality is that it gets applied to thoughts or actions against Judaism. Criticism of Israel is a pastime of Jews around the world, and yet they aren't anti-Semitic. In fact, a group of Jews are rabidly anti-Israel -- they are anti-Zionist. No one says they are anti-Semitic. However, it does seem to be the case that people who claim to be "anti-Israel" end up being revealed as anti-Jewish. The BBC coverage for example, which took the Arabic comments against Jews and turned them into "anti-Israel" to cover up the anti-Semitism. The BDS movement has endorsed behaviors aimed against Jews outside of Israel, not Israelis. A German judge even ruled that the two were equatable after incidents in which protesters against Israel chanted "Death to Jews."

Criticizing Israel is easy . Everyone does it. However when one criticizes Zionism as a movement, or questions the validity of an entire country, one often crosses into attacks on the underlying religious identity.

 

[columbus]

But that's a bizarre and unsubstantiated assertion. Both the word "anti-Semitism" and "Jew" have precise meanings.

No, they don't.
There are Semitic people who are not Jewish. Lots of the indigenous Palestinian people are ethnically Semitic. But nobody I know refers to criticism of their culture or behavior as antisemitism.

There is not a clear meaning of Jew either. It is an ethnicity, a culture, and a religion. A person could have any combination and be "Jewish". I've known USA black evangelical Christians who considered themselves Jewish, because they worship the God of Abraham the way He really intended. I also have a BIL who is ethnically and culturally as Jewish as you get, but he isn't any more religious than I am. In other words, I know a lot of Jewish people and they range all over the map.

Neither word has a precise meaning.
Tom

 

[rosends]

No, they don't.
There are Semitic people who are not Jewish. Lots of the indigenous Palestinian people are ethnically Semitic. But nobody I know refers to criticism of their culture or behavior as antisemitism.

Now you have changed things. No one is questioning the variety of people who might be called "semitic" but th issue isn't with that word. It is with the construct "anti-Semitic" which means precisely what it as coined to mean.

There is not a clear meaning of Jew either. It is an ethnicity, a culture, and a religion. A person could have any combination and be "Jewish". I've known USA black evangelical Christians who considered themselves Jewish, because they worship the God of Abraham the way He really intended. I also have a BIL who is ethnically and culturally as Jewish as you get, but he isn't any more religious than I am. In other words, I know a lot of Jewish people and they range all over the map.

Neither word has a precise meaning.
Tom

People who "consider" themselves something don't affect the meaning of the word. If I turned around and said I consider myself Ukrainian because my name has a D in it, that doesn't change the definition of Ukranian. Are you saying that all words only have meaning based on the uses and intentions of people who choose to employ those words? Does "criminal" not have a meaning because I know a guy who ate an extra 20 calories so he calls himself a criminal even though he broke no law? Does "purple" not have a meaning because I have a green toy and I have decided that I consider it purple? Judaism i a thing. It is a thing with a history and with rules and limitations. If you decided that you consider yourself a Jew while your are worshipping 14 different farm animals and denying every bit of Jewish law and history and heritage, the word would remain and you would be excluded. Language isn't victim to the whims of everyone who decides that it is a toy. Words exist and point to specific things, regardless of what your misguided friends think. I wonder how they would react if I called myself a Christian while denying the Jesus ever existed and worshipping Buddha. Or that I was Black because I consider white and black to be synonymous.

 

[Curious George]

Do you know what a statistic is?


My point is, its about being different and not wanting to fit into a culture.

If people were painted all blue, they would attract negative attention

I certainly fit into American culture, but this as I have been reminded by countless Jews, May not be enough at some point. Even those who fit in can find themselves being pushed out by the group with whom they "fit in."

I understand that many call discrimination when none is present, but that doesn't mean there is not plenty of real discrimination to go around.

While I am pleased that you see little discrimination in your circles of travel, I believe this is your experience.

From my experience, there is still plenty of anti semitism on the west coast (in the USA), but this pales in comparison to the amount of discrimination faced by Latinos on the west coast (in the USA).

I generally assume that discrimination if not targeted at one group is targeted at another. People will discriminate this is a fact for which there seems little to no escape.

However, I imagine if you ask your friends if they personally have witnessed antisemitism, you will find that many have. If this is true, then shouldnt we acknowledge that there is not "little" of it on the west coast, but actually far too much?

 

[columbus]

Now you have changed things. No one is questioning the variety of people who might be called "semitic" but th issue isn't with that word. It is with the construct "anti-Semitic" which means precisely what it as coined to mean.

No, you are changing things. The label antisemitism was never precise, in fact it was etymologically wrong.
It was used as a word to replace the rather more precise "anti Jew", because that didn't sound so good.

But there is now another issue that didn't exist then, Zionism. In the last few decades it has come to be used to conflate anti Jewish bigotry with anti Zionist ethics. The label has changed meaning, becoming even more imprecise than it was in 1900 CE.

Tom

 

[columbus]

People who "consider" themselves something don't affect the meaning of the word.

It does when the word is an imprecise label.
There are black usonians who consider me a n****r. I don't really, but I understand the usage of the word/label in the context. It's close enough for linguistic work.
Tom

 

[rosends]

No, you are changing things. The label antisemitism was never precise, in fact it was etymologically wrong.
It was used as a word to replace the rather more precise "anti Jew", because that didn't sound so good.

But there is now another issue that didn't exist then, Zionism. In the last few decades it has come to be used to conflate anti Jewish bigotry with anti Zionist ethics. The label has changed meaning, becoming even more imprecise than it was in 1900 CE.

Tom

No, you have changed things from a discussion of the 19th century construct of "anti-Semitism" coined by someone for a reason, and the word "semitic". If you want to discuss why you think that the word "anti-Semitic" from the moment it was coined, was wrong, feel free. There's a time machine -- go to 1870 and duke it out with the Germans who made it. But barring that, the word means what it means. It was made to replace something as a synonym so its meaning is the same. And, to repeat, Zionism DID exist then. That's neither here nor there because there is a perfectly serviceable word "anti-Zionism" which you can employ if you want to talk about that. Claiming that the two are connected is foolish and wrong. The word "anti-Semitic" still means what it did when it was coined. You can keep stamping your feet and insisting that it SHOULDN'T, but it does.

 

[columbus]

In fact, a group of Jews are rabidly anti-Israel -- they are anti-Zionist. No one says they are anti-Semitic. However, it does seem to be the case that people who claim to be "anti-Israel" end up being revealed as anti-Jewish.

Why am I antisemitic and the "Jews" you refer to aren't?

I would like it if the Israelis, as a group, pulled up stakes in Israel and moved here to Indiana. The Jewish ones as well as the ones who aren't.
I consider Israel the likeliest flash point of WWIII, and so likely to be the worst thing that ever happened to the human race. The Israeli people as a group I think unusually ethical, educated, creative and productive. So I would like for them to move out of the Islamic world and move here where I live.

Does that make me antisemitic?
Tom

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

That's an interesting point. Being "pro" one religion doesn't mean, necessarily, being anti all the others you exclude. I was thinking of it in concert with other prevailing attitudes (for an interesting discussion of the institutionalizing of anti-Semitism in schools, try this).

Anti-Semitism is not the same thing as thinking Judaism is ultimately not the correct religion, or thinking Christianity is and endorsing it. Christian prayers in school likely reflect a preference for Christianity, but they are not anti-Semitic in the relevant sense.

I think you are correct about the fact many people mix anti-Zionism and anti-Jewish feelings. I think much anti-Israel and anti-Zionist protests do include certain amounts of anti-Jewish feelings. I do think though there is a sizeable part of these movements who do genuinely distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism and do not endorse the latter. I say this as someone who is generally pro-Israel and think the Palestinians are mostly to blame for the stalled peace process.

 

[rosends]

It does when the word is an imprecise label.
There are black usonians who consider me a n****r. I don't really, but I understand the usage of the word/label in the context. It's close enough for linguistic work.
Tom

Ah, but the word is no more imprecise than the word "4" which is defined as the value of a particular set of things (if I remember my Wittgenstein). You are working backwards, deciding that since there are people who use it wrong and you condone their actions, the word must be imprecise. Saying something is "close enough for linguistic work" is intellectually lazy and imprecise. If that's your route, then good means bad, white means black, no means yes and we need not have grammar or spelling rules because, hey, if you can figure out what someone means, that's close enough.

 

[rosends]

Why am I antisemitic and the "Jews" you refer to aren't?

I would like it if the Israelis, as a group, pulled up stakes in Israel and moved here to Indiana. The Jewish ones as well as the ones who aren't.
I consider Israel the likeliest flash point of WWIII, and so likely to be the worst thing that ever happened to the human race. The Israeli people as a group I think unusually ethical, educated, creative and productive. So I would like for them to move out of the Islamic world and move here where I live.

Does that make me antisemitic?
Tom

I don't recall ever saying you are anti-Semitic. Can you show me otherwise? If you think that Jews should not live some place because of their religion, then you are anti-Semitic. If you think that Israel as a nation state does not deserve to exist then you are anti-Zionist and if you reasoning is because Jews shouldn't live in a particular place, then you are anti-Semitic. See how they are connected? The problem is, it is hard to reduce this conflict and NOT invoke religion. To be purely against the state of Israel and yet not against Jews, and understand that an essential part of Judaism is Zionism creates a near paradox.

 

[outhouse]

then shouldnt we acknowledge that there is not "little" of it on the west coast, but actually far too much?

No.

Where I live there is almost none unless you search for it.

We have no orthodox Jews here so we have very little.


Now I will point out what the orthodox are claiming as stereotypes Jews are guilty of as well. Many Jews look down on orthodox Jews and are as guilty as anyone else.


Its like how some Christians look down on YEC.\

Many theist do not like fanaticism and fundamentalism. And to me that's not a stereotype or bias, its telling the truth.

 

[rosends]

Anti-Semitism is not the same thing as thinking Judaism is ultimately not the correct religion, or thinking Christianity is and endorsing it. Christian prayers in school likely reflect a preference for Christianity, but they are not anti-Semitic in the relevant sense.

I think you are correct about the fact many people mix anti-Zionism and anti-Jewish feelings. I think much anti-Israel and anti-Zionist protests do include certain amounts of anti-Jewish feelings. I do think though there is a sizeable part of these movements who do genuinely distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism and do not endorse the latter. I say this as someone who is generally pro-Israel and think the Palestinians are mostly to blame for the stalled peace process.

If endorsing Christianity includes endorsing a theological platform which denies the validity of Judaism (and even endorsing the idea that Jews are worthy of punishment and such) isn't that anti-Jewish? If you are talking about happening to like Christianity and believing that it is a great way to be but different strokes for different folks, then fine. But sadly, often, being pro one thing demands being anti something viewed mutually exclusive.