Antisemitism today

[JRMcC]

Lately there's been a lot of talk about antisemitism being on the rise. So what about this? How widespread? How serious? What is the cause?

This discussion will probably get moving faster if I just start out with my opinion: It seems that the problem has a lot to do with Muslim-Jew relations. It's obvious that there is widespread antisemitism in the middle east, but the important question is "why is that so?". Clearly it has a lot do with the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Some would argue that the conflict is due to the Muslim's senseless hatred of Jews, while others would argue that it is due to Israel's aggressive actions. I would argue that middle eastern antisemitism, however prominent it might have been in the first place, has been made much more serious by Israel's actions.

Now to go closer to "how serious" and "how widespread". I think it's insane how carelessly the word antisemitic is thrown around today, at least in the US. Let me speak as someone from the northeastern US. I am not seeing this antisemitic sentiment that's supposedly spreading like wildfire. What more is there to say? I NEVER see anything close to it. The only time you will hear this term thrown around is when there is a debate about the Israel-Palestine conflict. One of my best friends since childhood is Jewish, and his Jewish, pro-Israel family is a good friend of my (mostly) pro-Palestine family. I also dated a Jewish girl for two years (yes I say girl because I'm only 21).

But I've been called antisemitic for being pro-palestine. Utterly ridiculous and stupid. If you are pro-palestine, and/or you know people who are, think, are the Jew haters?? The only pro-palestine antisemites I've ever met are Saudi Arabian. Think of how grossly insulting it is to slander so many good people that care about the well-being of Palestinians. Is this appropriate? Comparing serious antisemitism with the attitude of pro-palestinian westerners? Wow.

I submit that antisemitism in the middle east today is a serious problem. But claims that pro-palestinian attitudes in the west are due to spreading antisemitism? Disgusting and stupid.

 

[JRMcC]

Thoughts on this video? I think he starts out reasonable and calm, and then goes absolutely insane about halfway through. Just think about what he's really saying. This is modern day New York City.

 

[rosends]

Thoughts on this video? I think he starts out reasonable and calm, and then goes absolutely insane about halfway through. Just think about what he's really saying. This is modern day New York City.

Yes, and there is anti-semitism in modern day NYC. Sometimes it masquerades as anti-Zionism, but sometimes, it is just plain, old anti-semitism. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it is obvious. And sometimes the veneer of anti-Israel sentiment falls off before you know it. But it is there.

His point is that anti-Israel sentiment is most often a form of anti-semitism. Your question was also whether anti-semitism is. You state, "I am not seeing this antisemitic sentiment that's supposedly spreading like wildfire. What more is there to say? I NEVER see anything close to it. " That's nice. I live it everyday and I see it. Do I see it more than I used to? I am more attuned to it now but I go out of my comfort zone less. So the end result is that I see it about the same. It is there and not infrequently. Maybe it isn't the pennies I had chucked at my head or the woman threatening me with the razor blade as I walked in New York 25 years ago, but it is there -- in the defaced buildings and cemeteries, in the attitude towards Jewish residency, to stereotypes and, yes, to references to the Protocols and controlling the media.

 

[Sunstone]

There are certainly legitimate criticisms of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, but -- as a rule of thumb -- I take any criticism that is actually a blanket condemnation of Israelis and an equally stupid glorification of Palestinians as most likely antisemitic.

 

[Flankerl]

Yeah we get it.

It's obviously completely harmless and without ulterior motives to proclaim your support for the Palestinian Cause when its a hearing about Auschwitz Birkenau and the 70th anniversary about its liberation.

Do they do that at every hearing or only at those concerning a topic like this? Oh wait I know the answer already...

 

[JRMcC]

Yes, and there is anti-semitism in modern day NYC. Sometimes it masquerades as anti-Zionism, but sometimes, it is just plain, old anti-semitism. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it is obvious. And sometimes the veneer of anti-Israel sentiment falls off before you know it. But it is there.

His point is that anti-Israel sentiment is most often a form of anti-semitism. Your question was also whether anti-semitism is. You state, "I am not seeing this antisemitic sentiment that's supposedly spreading like wildfire. What more is there to say? I NEVER see anything close to it. " That's nice. I live it everyday and I see it. Do I see it more than I used to? I am more attuned to it now but I go out of my comfort zone less. So the end result is that I see it about the same. It is there and not infrequently. Maybe it isn't the pennies I had chucked at my head or the woman threatening me with the razor blade as I walked in New York 25 years ago, but it is there -- in the defaced buildings and cemeteries, in the attitude towards Jewish residency, to stereotypes and, yes, to references to the Protocols and controlling the media.

Sure there are incidents like complete idiot asses throwing pennies at people. And I'm sorry about your razorblade incident, but I am talking more about today. If you have other experiences I am genuinely interested in hearing.

Sorry I wasn't clear in my original post, but I would like to focus on modern antisemitism in the west as it relates (or doesn't) to the Israel-palestine conflict. Do you agree that people like the demonstrators in the video are angry that Hitler didn't finish the job?

 

[Kirran]

I think it's important to recognise the existence of people holding a variety of beliefs on this topic.

There are anti-Semites who are just anti-Semites.

There are anti-Semites who are also anti-Zionists.

There are anti-Semites masquerading as anti-Zionists.

There are anti-Zionists who are just anti-Zionists.

There are people who criticise the actions of recent governments of the State of Israel in relation to the plight of the Palestinian people.

The video posted, and the people holding the views it espouses, seem to ignore the existence of these latter two groups.

 

[JRMcC]

There are certainly legitimate criticisms of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, but -- as a rule of thumb -- I take any criticism that is actually a blanket condemnation of Israelies and an equally stupid glorification of Palestinians as essentially antisemitic.

Very thoughtful comment.

 

[Tarheeler]

Sure there are incidents like complete idiot asses throwing pennies at people. And I'm sorry about your razorblade incident, but I am talking more about today. If you have other experiences I am genuinely interested in hearing.

How about the vandalizing of the Jewish section of our city cemetery, where the vandals had to walk through two acres of non-Jewish graves (which were left untouched) to topple and spray paint the Jewish ones.

Or how about my son who gets smacked while riding the school bus. It only happened once he started wearing his kippah to school.

Or how about my family and I when we are called disgusting names while out grocery shopping?

Maybe you'd like to explain to our Religious schools students, who had to walk past the broken windows and spray-painted swastikas on the side of our synagogue, that anti-Semitism doesn't exist today.

It's bad enough that the local FBI office has a dedicated agent to check up on us.

It is alive and thriving today. Every Jew has to be cognizant of the risk we face, and we have to pay close attention to what is going on. There most certainly is room (and need) for valid criticism of policy and the actions taken in the conflict, but very often it is used as a veil for anti-Semitism.

 

[JRMcC]

Can anyone make out what their saying in the video? There are some people that go way too with their reaction to Israeli human rights abuses. I'm sure you've all heard people compare what Israel is doing to Palestine to what Nazi Germany did. I imagine these people were saying some junk like that. Can't generalize about the motives of those people, bud there's a difference between being naive/stupid and wanting to extinguish all Jews.

 

[JRMcC]

Yeah we get it.

It's obviously completely harmless and without ulterior motives to proclaim your support for the Palestinian Cause when its a hearing about Auschwitz Birkenau and the 70th anniversary about its liberation.

Do they do that at every hearing or only at those concerning a topic like this? Oh wait I know the answer already...

Hi, I see you're understandably upset. What do you think of comment 10?

 

[Kirran]

How about the vandalizing of the Jewish section of our city cemetery, where the vandals had to walk through two acres of non-Jewish graves (which were left untouched) to topple and spray paint the Jewish ones.

Or how about my son who gets smacked while riding the school bus. It only happened once he started wearing his kippah to school.

Or how about my family and I when we are called disgusting names while out grocery shopping?

Maybe you'd like to explain to our Religious schools students, who had to walk past the broken windows and spray-painted swastikas on the side of our synagogue, that anti-Semitism doesn't exist today.

It's bad enough that the local FBI office has a dedicated agent to check up on us.

It is alive and thriving today. Every Jew has to be cognizant of the risk we face, and we have to pay close attention to what is going on. There most certainly is room (and need) for valid criticism of policy and the actions taken in the conflict, but very often it is used as a veil for anti-Semitism.

Certainly there is anti-Semitism. And I can only offer my condolences that you, your son, and so many other people have to go through such saddening and humiliating experiences. I hope that some day we'll get over it, and you won't have to be vigilant all the time for such prejudiced behavior.

But this doesn't mean that all people supporting the existence of the State of Palestine, or who otherwise oppose the existence of an explicitly Jewish State of Israel, are anti-Semites. I personally support a one-state solution, in a state which is not explicitly Jewish. It may well have an Arab majority. But I certainly don't support the trashing of Jewish cemeteries, the persecution of Jewish children or the perpetuation of anti-Semitic stereotyping.

 

[JRMcC]

How about the vandalizing of the Jewish section of our city cemetery, where the vandals had to walk through two acres of non-Jewish graves (which were left untouched) to topple and spray paint the Jewish ones.

Or how about my son who gets smacked while riding the school bus. It only happened once he started wearing his kippah to school.

Or how about my family and I when we are called disgusting names while out grocery shopping?

Maybe you'd like to explain to our Religious schools students, who had to walk past the broken windows and spray-painted swastikas on the side of our synagogue, that anti-Semitism doesn't exist today.

It's bad enough that the local FBI office has a dedicated agent to check up on us.

It is alive and thriving today. Every Jew has to be cognizant of the risk we face, and we have to pay close attention to what is going on. There most certainly is room (and need) for valid criticism of policy and the actions taken in the conflict, but very often it is used as a veil for anti-Semitism.

Hi, I see you're also understandably upset. Where are you from? Would it be dumb of me to ask if you're from the south? As I mentioned, great Jewish friend, Jewish girlfriend, I've got a jewish college friend I hang out with and I've never heard about anything remotely like this. I'm not at all refuting your stories, but do you understand why someone like me would be confused?

 

[Sees]

Hi, I see you're also understandably upset. Where are you from? Would it be dumb of me to ask if you're from the south? As I mentioned, great Jewish friend, Jewish girlfriend, I've got a jewish college friend I hang out with and I've never heard about anything remotely like this. I'm not at all refuting your stories, but do you understand why someone like me would be confused?

If you click on a member's name often times it will have their location, if shared.

 

[rosends]

Sure there are incidents like complete idiot asses throwing pennies at people. And I'm sorry about your razorblade incident, but I am talking more about today. If you have other experiences I am genuinely interested in hearing.

Sorry I wasn't clear in my original post, but I would like to focus on modern antisemitism in the west as it relates (or doesn't) to the Israel-palestine conflict. Do you agree that people like the demonstrators in the video are angry that Hitler didn't finish the job?

Modern day incidents have been (here http://7online.com/archive/8498756/) molotov cocktail attacks and painted swastikas [ Swastika spray-painted on sidewalk in N.Y. suburb | Jewish Telegraphic Agency Ex-N.Y. cop busted for spray-painting swastikas in Brooklyn - World - Israel News | Haaretz] (I'm in the northeast, as well). But there have also been subtler modern day instances which present as attitude not as behavior.

Those people who go into an event commemorating the deaths of Jews and protest about Israel do so because THEY make a connection between Judaism and Israel, and feel that conflating the two makes for a viable reason to protest one through the other. This makes their behavior driven by anti-Semitism because they are not protesting at the Israeli embassy. And if they didn't protest the British occupation, or the Ottoman empire, or the UN members who voted in favor of partition or recognized the state then their choice to isolate the current state of Israel for protest seems suspect.

In truth, much of the anti-Israel sentiment comes from countries which, (not so) coincidentally, have a religious agenda which puts them at odds with Judaism. And a voice driven by religious ideology can't limit itself to particular governmental policies. It looks for an equal religious subject to argue against.

 

[Kirran]

Those people who go into an event commemorating the deaths of Jews and protest about Israel do so because THEY make a connection between Judaism and Israel, and feel that conflating the two makes for a viable reason to protest one through the other. This makes their behavior driven by anti-Semitism because they are not protesting at the Israeli embassy.

I think this is a very insightful point.

Lots of Jews who don't support Israel. Lots of supporters of Israel who aren't Jews.

Not to excuse this behavior, but assertions by the State of Israel of its nature as THE Jewish State probably do not help here.

 

[rosends]

I think this is a very insightful point.

Lots of Jews who don't support Israel. Lots of supporters of Israel who aren't Jews.

Not to excuse this behavior, but assertions by the State of Israel of its nature as THE Jewish State probably do not help here.

But why is it anyone's job to help the situation? Why should a modern nation-state apologize for having an identity? And if the state of Israel is a "Jewish" state (for whatever that means) that still doesn't make any Jew who died in 1944 any more closely connected to it so protest at an Auschwitz discussion is only reasonable if you connect "Jewish state" to "all Jews everywhere". And that makes for the anti-Semitism.

 

[Kirran]

But why is it anyone's job to help the situation? Why should a modern nation-state apologize for having an identity? And if the state of Israel is a "Jewish" state (for whatever that means) that still doesn't make any Jew who died in 1944 any more closely connected to it so protest at an Auschwitz discussion is only reasonable if you connect "Jewish state" to "all Jews everywhere". And that makes for the anti-Semitism.

I didn't say it was anyone's job to help the situation. I think it would be morally responsible, based on my own morals, because maintaining Israel's status as a Jewish state is causing widespread death and suffering.

You're right, that is very likely the connection being made by many people, and it is anti-Semitic. No arguments there.

 

[rosends]

I didn't say it was anyone's job to help the situation. I think it would be morally responsible, based on my own morals, because maintaining Israel's status as a Jewish state is causing widespread death and suffering.

You're right, that is very likely the connection being made by many people, and it is anti-Semitic. No arguments there.

I understand your point but Israel's maintaining a status as a Jewish state is simply Israel maintaining its entire raison detre. To change that is to apologize for being Jewish and having pride in that fact, and that's the demand that has been made for 2000 years which we refuse to accede to. And that's what causes a lot of anti-Semitism -- Jews insisting on being Jewish.

The idea that Israel's maintaining an identity is what "causes" death and destruction creates a false causality.

 

[Kirran]

I understand your point but Israel's maintaining a status as a Jewish state is simply Israel maintaining its entire raison detre. To change that is to apologize for being Jewish and having pride in that fact, and that's the demand that has been made for 2000 years which we refuse to accede to. And that's what causes a lot of anti-Semitism -- Jews insisting on being Jewish.

The idea that Israel's maintaining an identity is what "causes" death and destruction creates a false causality.

Not being Jewish, I am of course coming at this as an outsider. But I don't think it would need to entail an apology for being Jewish. For example, if China were explicitly a Han Chinese state, I would disagree with this. But I don't the creation of a non-ethnic Chinese state would mean the Han were ashamed of being Han.

I think Israel's affirmation of its Jewish nature encourages anti-Arab sentiment within Israel, while its Zionist agenda is resulting in the perpetration of atrocities against the people of the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights. I don't think its Zionist agenda couldn't be upheld in a non-Jewish state. I'm not equating Jews and Zionists.