Antisemitism today

[Flankerl]

Hi, I see you're understandably upset. What do you think of comment 10?

I quite honestly don't know what you want to hear.

 

[rosends]

Not being Jewish, I am of course coming at this as an outsider. But I don't think it would need to entail an apology for being Jewish. For example, if China were explicitly a Han Chinese state, I would disagree with this. But I don't the creation of a non-ethnic Chinese state would mean the Han were ashamed of being Han.

I think Israel's affirmation of its Jewish nature encourages anti-Arab sentiment within Israel, while its Zionist agenda is resulting in the perpetration of atrocities against the people of the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights. I don't think its Zionist agenda couldn't be upheld in a non-Jewish state. I'm not equating Jews and Zionists.

I think that this shows a different understanding of what Israel is and how people react to it. Israel was established AS a Jewish state. To stop affirming itself as one would be a step back. The recent affirmation of the Jewish identity via the Basic Law is a political ploy full of differing wordings and intentions. But at its heart, it affirms exactly what Israel is -- a Jewish state. Will that encourage anti-Arab sentiment? No one can know. Has the last 47 years created the sentiment on its own? This is just more of what is already there. The Zionist agenda is to exist as an autonomous state. That's what Zionism is. If the agenda, existence, is now to blame for "atrocities" then all that can be done to resolve that is to dismantle the entire state. There is no Zionism in a non-Jewish state because Zionism, even political Zionism, is inherently tied to Judaism. Taking a stand against Zionism is to try and cut the legs out of it as an extension of Jewish belief.

 

[Tarheeler]

...but do you understand why someone like me would be confused?

No, I don't. I think it takes and enormous amount of ignorance to claim that anti-Semitism doesn't exist today.

 

[Tarheeler]

Certainly there is anti-Semitism. And I can only offer my condolences that you, your son, and so many other people have to go through such saddening and humiliating experiences. I hope that some day we'll get over it, and you won't have to be vigilant all the time for such prejudiced behavior.

But this doesn't mean that all people supporting the existence of the State of Palestine, or who otherwise oppose the existence of an explicitly Jewish State of Israel, are anti-Semites. I personally support a one-state solution, in a state which is not explicitly Jewish. It may well have an Arab majority. But I certainly don't support the trashing of Jewish cemeteries, the persecution of Jewish children or the perpetuation of anti-Semitic stereotyping.

I never suggested it did.

 

[Yerda]

Look, there are literally hundreds of millions of people who harbour attitudes that could be reasonably described as antisemitic. It's a worldwide phenomenon, and the main cause is ignorance (or outright stupidity).

Israel can be criticised legitimately like any other state but let us be honest and admit that the criticism is massively disproportionate and often coming from a position of more-or-less complete ignorance.

The reason that it is easy to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism is because antisemites are unsurprisingly critical of Israel and tend to be found among those claiming to be pro-Palestinian or anti-zionist who are always up in arms about Israeli aggression and often found to be "empathising" with the psychopaths called Hamas.

 

[JRMcC]

No, I don't. I think it takes and enormous amount of ignorance to claim that anti-Semitism doesn't exist today.

Come on dude, be honest I never said that and I'm quite sure I told you specifically that I'm not refuting your story. Why would you dishonestly put words in my mouth? I guess my point really is that the term "antisemitic" is being grossly overused, and that people are saying it's spreading, when what they really mean is that more and more people in the west are becoming opposed to Israel's actions in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

 

[JRMcC]

I never suggested it did.

What he's getting at is that people pro-Israel people are using the term "antisemitic" as a political tool. Do you agree with them doing this?

 

[JRMcC]

Look, there are literally hundreds of millions of people who harbour attitudes that could be reasonably described as antisemitic. It's a worldwide phenomenon, and the main cause is ignorance (or outright stupidity).

Israel can be criticised legitimately like any other state but let us be honest and admit that the criticism is massively disproportionate and often coming from a position of more-or-less complete ignorance.

The reason that it is easy to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism is because antisemites are unsurprisingly critical of Israel and tend to be found among those claiming to be pro-Palestinian or anti-zionist who are always up in arms about Israeli aggression and often found to be "empathising" with the psychopaths called Hamas.

I'm not part of any pro-Palestine protest groups or anything so I can't say with certainty what most protesters against Israeli actions have as their specific reason. For me, it's that Israel is a democracy like us that should be held to a high standard, and because my country strongly supports their actions. It's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons.My family members that are pro-palestine have similar reasons.

 

[Tarheeler]

Come on dude, be honest I never said that and I'm quite sure I told you specifically that I'm not refuting your story. Why would you dishonestly put words in my mouth? I guess my point really is that the term "antisemitic" is being grossly overused, and that people are saying it's spreading, when what they really mean is that more and more people in the west are becoming opposed to Israel's actions in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

I'm not putting words in your mouth; you typed them. Both this thread and others.
You've claimed that "the only time you will hear this term thrown around is when there is a debate about the Israel-Palestine conflict."

What he's getting at is that people pro-Israel people are using the term "antisemitic" as a political tool. Do you agree with them doing this?

Sorry, but I'm not defending your stawman.

 

[Nietzsche]

I'm against all states purported to be for one type of people. Israel claims to be a Jewish State. Not a State that Happens to be Jewish, but a Jewish State. That makes it detestable as far as I'm concerned. Just as I am equally disgusted with notions of a "Palestinians Only" state or a Russian-Only State or a Germans-Only State.

All of them are examples of the worst disease inflicted upon humanity, namely Nationalism and its elder brother Religious Exclusivity. They can go straight to hell.

 

[Yerda]

I'm not part of any pro-Palestine protest groups or anything so I can't say with certainty what most protesters against Israeli actions have as their specific reason. For me, it's that Israel is a democracy like us that should be held to a high standard, and because my country strongly supports their actions. It's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons.My family members that are pro-palestine have similar reasons.

I understand your reasons.

 

[rosends]

An extension of the question as this relates to Israel (sorry if this is too political) -- people here seem to be against the current state of Israel (note, not its government, but its underlying ethos) and in favor of a state in which all people are equal. Putting aside whether that is or is not already the case, are you as vocal and public about your distaste for other countries which lack similar equality? One thing which strikes me is the amount of "anti" sentiment aimed at Israel while there are many other countries which institutionalize more excessive forms of divisions and inequality, and yet those people who champion "Arab equality and rights" don't seem to be protesting inequality when it happens anywhere else. This singling out of Israel as the object of protest further increases the odds that there is something else besides a principle which is encouraging such protest. The other obvious trait is religion.

----------Edit------------
I just read the line "it's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons."

That's the heart of the problem. The decision not to protest someone else is essentially the decision to say that Israel is subject to a different standard. Why would one country be held to a different standard? What makes that country unique?

 

[Flankerl]

I'm against all states purported to be for one type of people. Israel claims to be a Jewish State. Not a State that Happens to be Jewish, but a Jewish State. That makes it detestable as far as I'm concerned. Just as I am equally disgusted with notions of a "Palestinians Only" state or a Russian-Only State or a Germans-Only State.

All of them are examples of the worst disease inflicted upon humanity, namely Nationalism and its elder brother Religious Exclusivity. They can go straight to hell.

Yeah and because its a Jewish-only State there are no non-Jews Israeli citizens.


Oh wait...

It's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons.

Oh my I get to use the picture...

 

[JRMcC]

You've claimed that "the only time you will hear this term thrown around is when there is a debate about the Israel-Palestine conflict."

Ok that's a good catch. If you thought I meant there is no antisemitism in the US today I really screwed up. But you really don't know what I'm getting at here? Yes, I will occasionally here terrible stories in the news like some of the things you mentioned; hate crimes are real and the effect a lot of people.

Here's what I mean: I've personally witnessed many awkward moments when someone says something off-color about gay people or black people for example. But never does a person's being Jewish come up in any sort of negative way (except in the comedy world for the most part) in day to day life. The only time that SEEMS to happen is when someone is critical of Israel's actions, then the term antisemitism is thrown around. You really, really, don't know what I mean??

Also, can you point to other places where I claimed antisemitism doesn't exist today? I'd be happy to clarify.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yeah and because its a Jewish-only State there are no non-Jews Israeli citizens.


Oh wait...

Get rid of the ID that specifies whether you're Israeli or Palestinian and you might have something to base an argument on. Not before.

 

[JRMcC]

Oh my I get to use the picture...

That is actually a funny cartoon in a twisted way. But my country is already combating ISIS. We are arming Israel. So we at least would like our gov to stop actively supporting Israel's questionable actions. This takes a lot to do, because people are so harshly anti-palestinian here for the most part.

 

[JRMcC]

An extension of the question as this relates to Israel (sorry if this is too political) -- people here seem to be against the current state of Israel (note, not its government, but its underlying ethos) and in favor of a state in which all people are equal. Putting aside whether that is or is not already the case, are you as vocal and public about your distaste for other countries which lack similar equality? One thing which strikes me is the amount of "anti" sentiment aimed at Israel while there are many other countries which institutionalize more excessive forms of divisions and inequality, and yet those people who champion "Arab equality and rights" don't seem to be protesting inequality when it happens anywhere else. This singling out of Israel as the object of protest further increases the odds that there is something else besides a principle which is encouraging such protest. The other obvious trait is religion.

----------Edit------------
I just read the line "it's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons."

That's the heart of the problem. The decision not to protest someone else is essentially the decision to say that Israel is subject to a different standard. Why would one country be held to a different standard? What makes that country unique?

Like I said, Israel is supposed to be one of those progressive, morally responsible democracies. I despise the Saudi Arabian government for example, but they are not held to the same standard because they have a barbaric theocratic regime in place. Does that make sense?

I think it is massively dangerous to moral and progressive democracies to not acknowledge it when one of us is acting immorally. And yes, the US has a far worse track record than Israel.

 

[JRMcC]

Sorry, but I'm not defending your stawman.

Just to put it another way, do you acknowledge that this is going on, or do you deny it?


And hey you are from the south! I knew it!!

 

[gsa]

An extension of the question as this relates to Israel (sorry if this is too political) -- people here seem to be against the current state of Israel (note, not its government, but its underlying ethos) and in favor of a state in which all people are equal. Putting aside whether that is or is not already the case, are you as vocal and public about your distaste for other countries which lack similar equality? One thing which strikes me is the amount of "anti" sentiment aimed at Israel while there are many other countries which institutionalize more excessive forms of divisions and inequality, and yet those people who champion "Arab equality and rights" don't seem to be protesting inequality when it happens anywhere else. This singling out of Israel as the object of protest further increases the odds that there is something else besides a principle which is encouraging such protest. The other obvious trait is religion.

----------Edit------------
I just read the line "it's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons."

That's the heart of the problem. The decision not to protest someone else is essentially the decision to say that Israel is subject to a different standard. Why would one country be held to a different standard? What makes that country unique?

The status of Israel, at least within American discourse, is unique. We are told that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, that we enjoy a special relationship and partnership with Israel, and that Israel is among the states that shares our values.

Israel has promoted this view since its inception. But that also means that Israel is subject to higher standards. And given the history of US support for Israel, Americans have other reasons to object to things that Israel does with that money (EDIT: And most importantly, military technology and assistance).

There are a number of other reasons for the focus that have little to nothing to do with religion, including personal relationships with Palestinians and concerns about the impact of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on regional stability.

For some antisemitism is a reason, there's no denying it. But that’s not the only reason, and it certainly isn’t the primary reason for the leftist critique of Israel. But the legitimate concern for perceived anti-Semitism is a good reason for critics to be careful in their language, tactics and associations.

 

[Flankerl]

Get rid of the ID that specifies whether you're Israeli or Palestinian and you might have something to base an argument on. Not before.

Which doesn't exist. Good luck next time.

Israeli passport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israeli identity card - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is actually a funny cartoon in a twisted way. But my country is already combating ISIS. We are arming Israel. So we at least would like our gov to stop actively supporting Israel's questionable actions. This takes a lot to do, because people are so harshly anti-palestinian here for the most part.

Then vote accordingly. It's not Israels fault that your country has a Two-Party system.

And really that's your comeback from the picture? Well enjoy protesting against Israel.

And yes, the US has a far worse track record than Israel.

So you know that you sit inside the porcelain store yet throw stones at Israel.

Great stuff.