Antisemitism today

[Nietzsche]

Which doesn't exist. Good luck next time.

Israeli passport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israeli identity card - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't exist anymore. Apparently it's been gone for 10 years. I was unaware of this. That is quite a sight better. Now, let's talk about the colonization.

 

[Flankerl]

Doesn't exist anymore. Apparently it's been gone for 10 years. I was unaware of this. That is quite a sight better. Now, let's talk about the colonization.

Yeah for 10 years. And you want to talk about this topic? That's going to be hilarious.

 

[Yerda]

----------Edit------------
I just read the line "it's not necessary to protest ISIS for obvious reasons."

That's the heart of the problem. The decision not to protest someone else is essentially the decision to say that Israel is subject to a different standard. Why would one country be held to a different standard? What makes that country unique?

Depends on the nature of the protest. Generally these things target the politicians enabling arms sales, the embassy, and the media. The reason that this can be effective is because public protest looks bad on news broadcasts and papers for politicians and embassies. Israel loses a little credibility (which it trades on), diplomatic relations are affected, sometimes arms sales are halted or scrutinised, and the UN often proposes a resolution that the US vetos but it makes the news. None of this is overwhelmingly effective but can make some small difference.

Can you see why there is little point protesting against lunatics?

They have little or no diplomtic relations. They aren't buying weapons through legal channels. They don't give a flying duck what the media broadcasts or what the world thinks of them. A thousand Londoners, for example, shouting about ISIS would probably be a useful propaganda tool for ISIS if they bothered to pay attention at all.

Is it not proper to hold Israel to a higher standard than murderous paramilitary thugs? We'd surely be antisemites if we thought that the democratic secular Jewish homeland could not be expected to behave better than religious extremist death squads.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yeah for 10 years. And you want to talk about this topic? That's going to be hilarious.

I admitted to my fault. That it was rescinded only ten years ago speaks volumes about what's wrong with Israel, and again, there is still the serious issue of colonization.

 

[JRMcC]

So you know that you sit inside the porcelain store yet throw stones at Israel.

Great stuff.

What makes you think I don't throw stones at the US? By the way, I can mention US human rights abuses in general conversation (or on a facebook post) and some people will agree with me and acknowledge it. Most usually say nothing, and once and a while someone will disagree with you. But this is not the case with Israeli human rights abuses. Anytime you do it you're likely to be called antisemitic. That's a serious accusation. No country should be exempt from criticism for any reason.

 

[Flankerl]

They aren't buying weapons through legal channels.

Now this is funny.
Yeah all those trucks which cross the Turkish-Syrian border daily are totally illegal. Oh wait they are sent by the Turkish Government.

Nevermind this.(it was even in the News....)


Pro tip: Demonstrate against that if IS so beneath your level.

could not be expected to behave better than religious extremist death squads.

- insert random IS video here - Because Israel does stuff like this.

I admitted to my fault. That it was rescinded only ten years ago speaks volumes about what's wrong with Israel, and again, there is still the serious issue of colonization.

lol "only ten years ago". I know human beings in my social environment who weren't alive 10 years ago. But hey only 10 years ago.

If you have this deep urge to write about "colonisation" you better do so.

 

[Flankerl]

Anytime you do it you're likely to be called antisemitic.

Ah yes of course. Anytime.

Probably even beforehand.

 

[Nietzsche]

lol "only ten years ago". I know human beings in my social environment who weren't alive 10 years ago. But hey only 10 years ago.

For a State that's been around since 48 and tries to be a liberal democracy, founded by people who knew what oppression and second-class citizenship really was, that this was only rectified 10 years ago is shameful.

If you have this deep urge to write about "colonisation" you better do so.

Are you implying Israel hasn't been trying to colonize the West Bank, East Jerusalem & the Golan Heights?

 

[Yerda]

Now this is funny.
Yeah all those trucks which cross the Turkish-Syrian border daily are totally illegal. Oh wait they are sent by the Turkish Government.

Nevermind this.(it was even in the News....)


Pro tip: Demonstrate against that if IS so beneath your level.

You clearly have access to better sources than me. Would you care you share them?

EDIT:

I had heard that Turkey was using ISIS against the Kurds on the border regions. I had presumed it wasn't official. Given that ISIS is a UN listed terrorist organisation would arms sales not be illegal?

Also, it isn't beneath me. It would just be a complete waste of time. Don't you agree?

 

[JRMcC]

Ah yes of course. Anytime.

Probably even beforehand.

...What?

 

[gsa]

For a State that's been around since 48 and tries to be a liberal democracy, founded by people who knew what oppression and second-class citizenship really was, that this was only rectified 10 years ago is shameful.


Are you implying Israel hasn't been trying to colonize the West Bank, East Jerusalem & the Golan Heights?

Read about why it was rectified;it was internal Jewish identity politics, namely the status of Reform converts, and an attempt to circumvent an order of the Israeili Supreme Court.

 

[Yerda]

We should all be much more concerned about our respective governments part in supporting and arming the nutters that run Saudi Arabia.

 

[JRMcC]

We should all be much more concerned about our respective governments part in supporting and arming the nutters that run Saudi Arabia.

Yeah, people don't realize just how crazy Saudi Arabia is.

 

[Kirran]

I think that this shows a different understanding of what Israel is and how people react to it. Israel was established AS a Jewish state. To stop affirming itself as one would be a step back. The recent affirmation of the Jewish identity via the Basic Law is a political ploy full of differing wordings and intentions. But at its heart, it affirms exactly what Israel is -- a Jewish state. Will that encourage anti-Arab sentiment? No one can know. Has the last 47 years created the sentiment on its own? This is just more of what is already there. The Zionist agenda is to exist as an autonomous state. That's what Zionism is. If the agenda, existence, is now to blame for "atrocities" then all that can be done to resolve that is to dismantle the entire state. There is no Zionism in a non-Jewish state because Zionism, even political Zionism, is inherently tied to Judaism. Taking a stand against Zionism is to try and cut the legs out of it as an extension of Jewish belief.

Well that makes sense. Not being either Jewish or a Zionist, I'm bound to come at it from a different angle.

But OK, Israel was established as a Jewish state, I don't think it necessarily needs to remain a Jewish state. I think that a lot of the last 47 years' troubles have been caused by Israel's affirmation of its nature as a state for Jews, by Jews. When there are millions of non-Jewish people who are native to that land, as well as many other non-Jewish people in residence, be they immigrants, refugees etc. These people are all by necessity marginalised in a Jewish state by virtue of their not being Jews in one sense or another. That is discrimination, along ethnoreligious lines.

I am not saying I want Israel to stop existing, that's both impractical and inhumane, as there are huge numbers of Israelis there who have every right to be there. But for it to continue to be a Jewish state sidelines non-Jews and allows to maintain its Zionist-oriented governments, which in turn perpetrate atrocities against people within the regions it is colonising and subjugating. I don't disagree fundamentally with Zionism, but I think it makes more sense as a personal matter (as a Jew, to want to move to Israel) and only in a limited manner in a political manner (Jews are free to immigrate to Israel). Beyond that, it becomes colonialist.

I never suggested it did.

I'm sorry if I inferred you did.

Yeah and because its a Jewish-only State there are no non-Jews Israeli citizens.

This doesn't change anything. There are non-Muslims in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

 

[rosends]

But OK, Israel was established as a Jewish state, I don't think it necessarily needs to remain a Jewish state.

The entire reason it exists and continues to exist is as a Jewish state. Your sense that it need not remain that is like saying "the US was founded as a democracy, but that annoys royalists so there is no reason for the US to stay a democracy."

I think that a lot of the last 47 years' troubles have been caused by Israel's affirmation of its nature as a state for Jews, by Jews.

So you have a problem with Israel's entire existence as Israel.[/quote]

When there are millions of non-Jewish people who are native to that land, as well as many other non-Jewish people in residence, be they immigrants, refugees etc. These people are all by necessity marginalised in a Jewish state by virtue of their not being Jews in one sense or another. That is discrimination, along ethnoreligious lines.

You speak on their behalf? There is religious and political freedom in Israel. There is representation in government and protection in the social world for people of different races and religions to live peacefully. Can you say the same about non-Muslims in every Arab country in the region? Until you can, singling Israel out makes no sense.

I am not saying I want Israel to stop existing, that's both impractical and inhumane, as there are huge numbers of Israelis there who have every right to be there. But for it to continue to be a Jewish state sidelines non-Jews and allows to maintain its Zionist-oriented governments,

Again, yes, you are because you want Israel to stop being Israel, but be something else that you envision, which would then mean that the Israelis who live there would not have the same heritage based connection to their own homeland. You again claim that it sidelines non-Jews. How is the daily life of a Copt in Israel limited? Or a Bahai? The government is "Zionist oriented" in that it works to continue Israel's existence.

which in turn perpetrate atrocities against people within the regions it is colonising and subjugating.

Ah, I see. Israel's existence by definition subjugates and colonizes. British rule didn't. Ottoman rule didn't. Even though there was no hue and cry against them, Israel's rule is oppressive. Suddenly, in 1947, the heretofore non-existent rights of some phantom indigenous people and their unknown nationalistic feelings were being trampled on by the suddenly apparent Israeli presence.

I don't disagree fundamentally with Zionism,

Actually, you do. Zionism is the nationalistic urge towards an autonomous Jewish state. That is precisely what you disagree with.

but I think it makes more sense as a personal matter (as a Jew, to want to move to Israel) and only in a limited manner in a political manner (Jews are free to immigrate to Israel). Beyond that, it becomes colonialist.

It is OK for a Jew to want to move to the middle east as long as it is under someone else's rule.

 

[rosends]

Depends on the nature of the protest. Generally these things target the politicians enabling arms sales, the embassy, and the media. The reason that this can be effective is because public protest looks bad on news broadcasts and papers for politicians and embassies. Israel loses a little credibility (which it trades on), diplomatic relations are affected, sometimes arms sales are halted or scrutinised, and the UN often proposes a resolution that the US vetos but it makes the news. None of this is overwhelmingly effective but can make some small difference.

Can you see why there is little point protesting against lunatics?

No. I belong to a people who learned that silence equals death. Deciding that someone is not worth protesting over leads to the expansion of that lunacy until it becomes a nuclear power run by lunatics, which makes public statements about wiping my country off the map. And then no one wants to protest it either.

They have little or no diplomtic relations. They aren't buying weapons through legal channels. They don't give a flying duck what the media broadcasts or what the world thinks of them. A thousand Londoners, for example, shouting about ISIS would probably be a useful propaganda tool for ISIS if they bothered to pay attention at all.

And then, one day, they are no longer a fringe group because no one opposed their expansion. They demand political presence in world bodies -- think about that -- terrorists who make their living killing suddenly want legitimacy on the world political stage because no one opposed them earlier. The lunatics end up running the asylum. Had 1000 Londoners and then 2000 and then all the politicians who need the votes of those 2000 and then 100,000 and then all the national governments who saw what people believe, just said something, maybe the lunatics wouldn't suddenly be able to negotiate as political entities for hostage trades, land acquisition and arms deals. The thing is, with ISIS and other terror groups, that is all already happening. Who protested the PLO when it murdered Israelis? And now? It is a political player as is Hamas. The Taliban is a government and ISIS gets governments to sit and talk with it. Boko Harum commits atrocities but who needs to protest that lunacy? This is not to mention the clear subjugation of minority rights in well-established nation states which also doesn't get any protest.

Is it not proper to hold Israel to a higher standard than murderous paramilitary thugs? We'd surely be antisemites if we thought that the democratic secular Jewish homeland could not be expected to behave better than religious extremist death squads.

And is infantilising others if you don't hold them to the same moral standard. Why is it ok for the murderous thugs to carry on with nary a peep? Calling them "lunatics" does not absolve anyone from speaking up. If I name a country where Jews are not given certain rights, or gays are oppressed, or Christians are being killed, or women cannot live their lives as equals, will you be out to protest bright and early?

 

[rosends]

Are you implying Israel hasn't been trying to colonize the West Bank, East Jerusalem & the Golan Heights?

What exactly do you mean "colonise"? Do you mean "live in"? Are you saying that a country doesn't have the right to live places?

 

[Flankerl]

For a State that's been around since 48 and tries to be a liberal democracy, founded by people who knew what oppression and second-class citizenship really was, that this was only rectified 10 years ago is shameful.

Yeah yeah it's basically the worst thing since forever that it said "Jewish, Arab, Druze or Circassian" on the ID card.
Can you even produce some evidence that it lead to "second-class citizenship"?

Funnily enough it seems that it was deleted because the Haredim got butthurt because non-Orthodox Jews were listed as Jews.

Are you implying Israel hasn't been trying to colonize the West Bank, East Jerusalem & the Golan Heights?

How do you colonise your own Capital? But I get it, the City was divided for 19 years out of it 4 thousand years of history, that's obviously the way to go.
Also I am implying nothing, you are the one who wants to talk about Colonisation.
Also mentioning the Golan Heights is funny.

You clearly have access to better sources than me. Would you care you share them?

EDIT:

I had heard that Turkey was using ISIS against the Kurds on the border regions. I had presumed it wasn't official. Given that ISIS is a UN listed terrorist organisation would arms sales not be illegal?

Also, it isn't beneath me. It would just be a complete waste of time. Don't you agree?

Who's saying that they are selling them the weapons? It's actually quite simple. Take a town near the border. When the state sponsored Trucks arrive all mobile phones get scrambled until the convoy has passed into Syria.

Meanwhile turkish border guards let all western Jihadists into Syria and even out again.
But I don't really have the time to find the source, take that however you will.

And why it would be a waste of time to protest against such a blood thirsty group is currently eluding me.

...What?

It's quite ridiculous to proclaim that you are being called an Antisemite "anytime" you bring up the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

This doesn't change anything. There are non-Muslims in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

At least check what he wrote to understand why I wrote it...

But OK, Israel was established as a Jewish state, I don't think it necessarily needs to remain a Jewish state. I think that a lot of the last 47 years' troubles have been caused by Israel's affirmation of its nature as a state for Jews, by Jews. When there are millions of non-Jewish people who are native to that land, as well as many other non-Jewish people in residence, be they immigrants, refugees etc. These people are all by necessity marginalised in a Jewish state by virtue of their not being Jews in one sense or another. That is discrimination, along ethnoreligious lines.

Ah yes the thorough discrimination of a state enforced Jewish Calendar(and the "regular" one) and Jewish Holidays. Oh the humanity.

Meanwhile the following Western Countries still got a State Religion in the year 2015: England, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Argentina, Costa Rica, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco and the Vatican State.

But hey it's probably different............................

I am not saying I want Israel to stop existing, that's both impractical and inhumane, as there are huge numbers of Israelis there who have every right to be there. But for it to continue to be a Jewish state sidelines non-Jews and allows to maintain its Zionist-oriented governments, which in turn perpetrate atrocities against people within the regions it is colonising and subjugating. I don't disagree fundamentally with Zionism, but I think it makes more sense as a personal matter (as a Jew, to want to move to Israel) and only in a limited manner in a political manner (Jews are free to immigrate to Israel). Beyond that, it becomes colonialist.

So living in a (still) majority Christian country with Christian holidays throughout the entire year, how discriminated against am I?
All this Christian religion everywhere coupled with Christian culture is really something.

 

[rosends]

So living in a (still) majority Christian country with Christian holidays throughout the entire year, how discriminated against am I?
All this Christian religion everywhere coupled with Christian culture is really something.

And remember, as a non-Christian, having to close my business on a Sunday because of blue laws, or being unable to do what I need on Dec 25 because the government decided that is a "holiday", or have to "affirm" in court because they want to have me swear on a bible. But no one will protest because "it's different."

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

I have issues with the term anti-semitism.
A better term would be Anti-jewism. Because lets behonest Arabs are also hated yet no one speaks of Anti-semitism.

Does anyone agree that the term anti-semitism is only for jews? I never saw anti-semitism referring to Arabs when we know there is hatred for arabs aswell.