Antisemitism today

[rosends]

For a State that's been around since 48 and tries to be a liberal democracy, founded by people who knew what oppression and second-class citizenship really was, that this was only rectified 10 years ago is shameful.

How many years did it take for the US to ensure equal rights in terms of voting for all? What about women's suffrage in England? It took New Zealand 53 years. Israel's speed of growth seems rather reasonable.

 

[Flankerl]

And remember, as a non-Christian, having to close my business on a Sunday because of blue laws, or being unable to do what I need on Dec 25 because the government decided that is a "holiday", or have to "affirm" in court because they want to have me swear on a bible. But no one will protest because "it's different."

When I got my high school diploma(Abitur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) everyone was expected to visit a Church(and take part in a Christian service) afterwards

But hey nothing wrong here.

I have issues with the term anti-semitism.
A better term would be Anti-jewism. Because lets behonest Arabs are also hated yet no one speaks of Anti-semitism.

Does anyone agree that the term anti-semitism is only for jews? I never saw anti-semitism referring to Arabs when we know there is hatred for arabs aswell.

For the twelve billionth time: Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rosends]

I have issues with the term anti-semitism.
A better term would be Anti-jewism. Because lets behonest Arabs are also hated yet no one speaks of Anti-semitism.

Does anyone agree that the term anti-semitism is only for jews? I never saw anti-semitism referring to Arabs when we know there is hatred for arabs aswell.

The term anti-Semitism was specifically coined to mean "against Jews." The later generalization to all peoples who claim to be semites (through language or ancestry) is linguistic sophistry.

Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Flanker,
If Arabs hate zionist Jews, how can they be called Anti-semites? Does it mean Arabs hate their Semite Forefather(Sem)? They hate being semites? It makes no sense. Thats why i really prefer anti-jewism(Anti-Jewism should be fought, its pure hatred). Besides we forget the fact that Hitler/Nazis didnt hate Semities, he hated Jews. So the Nazis were preaching Anti-Jewism.

 

[rosends]

Flanker,
If Arabs hate zionist Jews, how can they be called Anti-semites? Does it mean Arabs hate their Semite Forefather(Sem)? They hate being semites? It makes no sense. Thats why i really prefer anti-jewism. Because Hitler/Nazis didnt hate Semities, he hated Jews.

If Arabs hate Jews, they are anti-Semites, regardless of the political position of the Jew involved.

 

[Flankerl]

Read what it says in the article. The term has nothing to do with linguistics.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

If Arabs hate Jews, they are anti-Semites, regardless of the political position of the Jew involved.

How are they anti-Semites, when Arabs are Semites themselves?


The International community should look into this matter. The other semite nations are neglected. It seems Jews are the only Semites who can claim to be victums of Anti-Semitism when we know there are hundreds of cases where Arabs and Aramaics/Other Semites were discriminated.


Anyways sorry for going offtopic.
Iam against Anti-Jewism. We saw the uglyness during WW2. But same time i oppose Zionism, not because i hate jews. Jews are nice ppl. I knew some of them personaly, and others are my neighbours.

 

[rosends]

How are they anti-Semites, when Arabs are Semites themselves?


The International community should look into this matter. The other semite nations are neglected. It seems Jews are the only Semites who can claim to be victums of Anti-Semitism when we know there are hundreds of cases where Arabs and Aramaics/Other Semites were discriminated.

If you had read the article you would see that the term "anti-Semite_ was coined specifically to mean "anti-Jewish". It is a real word with a real origin and so misapplying it and misusing it today to try and make an argument is just plain silly.

 

[Tarheeler]

How are they anti-Semites, when Arabs are Semites themselves?


The International community should look into this matter. The other semite nations are neglected. It seems Jews are the only Semites who can claim to be victums of Anti-Semitism when we know there are hundreds of cases where Arabs and Aramaics/Other Semites were discriminated.


Anyways sorry for going offtopic.
Iam against Anti-Jewism. We saw the uglyness during WW2. But same time i oppose Zionism, not because i hate jews. Jews are nice ppl. I knew some of them personaly, and others are my neighbours.

It has, and here is the international definition of anti-Semitism: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Working definition of Antisemitism: English. European Forum on Antisemitism

As for why it means that, it's due to a racist German in the 1880's deciding that his group dedicated to kicking all the Jews out of Germany would be aptly called "The League of Anti-Semites", and everyone else agreed.

If you have an issue with it, I suggest you find a way to take it up with Herr Marr.

 

[wizanda]

Don't know if to start another debate, 'Who is More Semite? Jews or Muslims', as clearly a lot of Ashkenazi Jews, are more European now than Semite; which would mean the Muslims being persecuted, is antisemitism?

 

[Tarheeler]

Ok that's a good catch. If you thought I meant there is no antisemitism in the US today I really screwed up. But you really don't know what I'm getting at here? Yes, I will occasionally here terrible stories in the news like some of the things you mentioned; hate crimes are real and the effect a lot of people.

Here's what I mean: I've personally witnessed many awkward moments when someone says something off-color about gay people or black people for example. But never does a person's being Jewish come up in any sort of negative way (except in the comedy world for the most part) in day to day life. The only time that SEEMS to happen is when someone is critical of Israel's actions, then the term antisemitism is thrown around. You really, really, don't know what I mean??

Also, can you point to other places where I claimed antisemitism doesn't exist today? I'd be happy to clarify.

Yes, I do know what you're talking about.

There are also plenty of whites who think racism doesn't exist, plenty of straight people who believe homophobia doesn't exist, and many Americans who really do believe every Muslim on this planet is a terrorist.

Of course, their perception isn't reality nor does it justify their dismissal of very real and serious issues as nothing more than political rhetoric.

Personally, I find it (to quote your OP) disgusting and stupid.

Just to put it another way, do you acknowledge that this is going on, or do you deny it?


And hey you are from the south! I knew it!!

Like I said, I'm not defending your strawman.

 

[JRMcC]

It's quite ridiculous to proclaim that you are being called an Antisemite "anytime" you bring up the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

Wow. Go look at what I said. I said you're LIKELY to be called antisemitic. Pathetic that you have to be dishonest to defend your positions.

 

[JRMcC]

Don't know if to start another debate, 'Who is More Semite? Jews or Muslims', as clearly a lot of Ashkenazi Jews, are more European now than Semite; which would mean the Muslims being persecuted, is antisemitism?

A words game hahaha

 

[JRMcC]

If Arabs hate Jews, they are anti-Semites, regardless of the political position of the Jew involved.

Ironic blanket statement about Arabs. I would go so far as to say that you're racist.

 

[JRMcC]

Yes, I do know what you're talking about.

There are also plenty of whites who think racism doesn't exist, plenty of straight people who believe homophobia doesn't exist, and many Americans who really do believe every Muslim on this planet is a terrorist.

Of course, their perception isn't reality nor does it justify their dismissal of very real and serious issues as nothing more than political rhetoric.

Personally, I find it (to quote your OP) disgusting and stupid.


Like I said, I'm not defending your strawman.

Ok, firstly I accept your criticism of my post. People here have pointed out many of the real problems with antisemitism in the US. I was underinformed about this.

What I was really thinking about when I posted was all the talk of antisemitism that happens when there's a debate about the Israel-Palestine conflict. It appears as though I was wrong, but it seemed like the recent talk of rising antisemitism was directly related to the recent increase in western support for Palestine. Clearly that's only a part of the problem.

That being said, are you willing to address this point? I even looked at the definition to straw man to be sure, and my second attempt to ask you about this was not a straw man, though the first one was. How else can I say it... In debates about the conflict do people 1. frequently use the term antisemitism where it isn't warranted 2. Sometimes use the term when it isn't warranted 3. or does this not happen much at all?

 

[Flankerl]

Wow. Go look at what I said. I said you're LIKELY to be called antisemitic. Pathetic that you have to be dishonest to defend your positions.

Ironic blanket statement about Arabs. I would go so far as to say that you're racist.

It's fascinating that you would accuse me of being dishonest while doing exactly the same thing 18 minutes later.

He wrote "If Arabs hate Jews, " not that (all) Arabs hate Jews. But hey it's probably different.


Oh and btw "likely" implies that the chances are way over 50% that it actually happens. So in a way you do say that it happens anytime.

 

[Tarheeler]

How else can I say it... In debates about the conflict do people 1. frequently use the term antisemitism where it isn't warranted 2. Sometimes use the term when it isn't warranted 3. or does this not happen much at all?

Of course the charge is sometimes used when it isn't warranted; we see people making all types of charges in all heated debates whether it is political or not.

And it's every bit as wrong as people calling Jews genocidal murders or comparing Israel to the Nazis (which are valid examples of anti-Semitism, BTW).

 

[rosends]

Ironic blanket statement about Arabs. I would go so far as to say that you're racist.

Based on what? I have not presented a single opinion about Arabs, just about a behavior if it is presented. I make a blanket statement about all people: "If X hate Jews then they are anti-Semitic." I used Arabs because I was responding to "If Arabs hate zionist Jews, how can they be called Anti-semites?"

So before you level ridiculous accusations, try to read up on what's going on.

 

[Kirran]

The entire reason it exists and continues to exist is as a Jewish state. Your sense that it need not remain that is like saying "the US was founded as a democracy, but that annoys royalists so there is no reason for the US to stay a democracy."

So you have a problem with Israel's entire existence as Israel.

Can a non-Jewish person be an Israeli? If so, there exists a notion of an Israeli state which transcends its Jewish nature, meaning that its explicitly Jewish status is not necessary for it to exist.

You speak on their behalf? There is religious and political freedom in Israel. There is representation in government and protection in the social world for people of different races and religions to live peacefully. Can you say the same about non-Muslims in every Arab country in the region? Until you can, singling Israel out makes no sense.

I don't represent them, no, as I am not one of them. Nevertheless I have met Palestinians and children of Palestinians who have been driven from their homeland by the formation, and the actions since, of the state of Israel.

Why do you think I'm singling Israel out? I'm talking about Israel now, because this discussion is about Israel. Criticism of the actions of the Israeli government doesn't equate to saying other Middle Eastern countries have perpetrated no human rights abuses.

You again claim that it sidelines non-Jews. How is the daily life of a Copt in Israel limited? Or a Bahai? The government is "Zionist oriented" in that it works to continue Israel's existence.

If you live in a Jewish state, and are not Jewish, then that is right away a message to you saying 'This isn't really your country, you don't really belong here'. And this can work both to undermine the identity of non-Jews and to further prop up sentiment among Jewish Israelis that this is their country to the exclusion of all others.

Ah, I see. Israel's existence by definition subjugates and colonizes. British rule didn't. Ottoman rule didn't. Even though there was no hue and cry against them, Israel's rule is oppressive. Suddenly, in 1947, the heretofore non-existent rights of some phantom indigenous people and their unknown nationalistic feelings were being trampled on by the suddenly apparent Israeli presence.

Again, it is inaccurate to assume that by virtue of criticising Israel I'm saying all other nations are blameless. British rule and Ottoman rule weren't great either. Israel's existence does not definition result in the subjugation and colonisation of the West Bank etc, but its current MO is to do so. I mean, Palestinian people are actually getting pushed from their lands, murdered and bombed. They are being forced from their homes, deprived of the rights to travel between their communities in the West Bank, and generally being broken down.

Actually, you do. Zionism is the nationalistic urge towards an autonomous Jewish state. That is precisely what you disagree with.

Alright, by that definition, I'm an anti-Zionist, fine.

It is OK for a Jew to want to move to the middle east as long as it is under someone else's rule.

A lack of explicitly Jewish rule does not equate to explicitly Arab rule. It's not Jews are explicitly in charge versus Jews have no power and are subjugated.


As for colonisation: I'm using it in the sense of settling in an area in large numbers at the expense of a group previously present. I refer to Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and their effect on the Palestinian people dwelling there (and also the situation in the Negev with the Bedouin). It's not about who has rights to do what, rights are variable depending on where you are and who you ask. I'm just referring to my own moral reaction to this situation.

At least check what he wrote to understand why I wrote it...

I was countering the idea that there isn't discrimination along ethnoreligious lines in the State of Israel due to their being non-Jews there. This doesn't hold true to me.

Ah yes the thorough discrimination of a state enforced Jewish Calendar(and the "regular" one) and Jewish Holidays. Oh the humanity.

As well as my previous points regarding the effects of calling a state explicitly Jewish on its non-Jewish inhabitants, this isn't everything. Israeli law is partly made up of halakhic law, which means that non-Jewish people, and indeed Jewish people, are obligated to live under a religious legal system.

Meanwhile the following Western Countries still got a State Religion in the year 2015: England, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Argentina, Costa Rica, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco and the Vatican State.

But hey it's probably different............................

You're implying by this that I'm somehow fine with that, when I've never said was. I am against those countries being explicitly Christian in nature (with the exception of the Vatican). I am a non-Christian who has spent their life in a nation which is proclaimed to be Christian.

So living in a (still) majority Christian country with Christian holidays throughout the entire year, how discriminated against am I?
All this Christian religion everywhere coupled with Christian culture is really something.

I am by no means in favour of your being obligated to observe Christian holidays, or, in reference to other posts, your having to swear on the Bible, go to Churches, etc. Why do you think I am?

A question for anybody reading: based on what I've said so far in this discussion, do you consider me to be anti-Semitic?

 

[rosends]

Can a non-Jewish person be an Israeli? If so, there exists a notion of an Israeli state which transcends its Jewish nature, meaning that its explicitly Jewish status is not necessary for it to exist.

Yes. Can a communist be an American citizen? How about an anarchist? Yes, but that doesn't mean that therefore America should change its political identity. A nation is not defined by the diverse identities of every single citizen, is it? Would you rather Israeli citizenship is not conferred on non-Jews? The Jewish status exists regardless of the religious choice of any of its members because that's what the state IS.

I don't represent them, no, as I am not one of them. Nevertheless I have met Palestinians and children of Palestinians who have been driven from their homeland by the formation, and the actions since, of the state of Israel.

Well, no you haven't. You have met Arabs. There are no "Palestinians" so your sympathies begin based on a flawed understanding. And as to the "driven from their homeland" there are many ways to respond to that. One is to point out the actual truth of why many people left. Another is to point out that the state was created by international mandate. Another is that the Jewish population didn't just materialize and force everyone out. But these are topics for another day.

Why do you think I'm singling Israel out? I'm talking about Israel now, because this discussion is about Israel. Criticism of the actions of the Israeli government doesn't equate to saying other Middle Eastern countries have perpetrated no human rights abuses.

I am asking if you are singling Israel out because I have yet to see parallel threads addressing other inequalities and the inequalities people raise regarding Israel are much more pronounced elsewhere.

If you live in a Jewish state, and are not Jewish, then that is right away a message to you saying 'This isn't really your country, you don't really belong here'.

I have heard from non-Jews in Israel who don't agree with you. I don't know if you speak with authority when you project how you might feel on how they DO feel.

Palestinian people are actually getting pushed from their lands, murdered and bombed. They are being forced from their homes, deprived of the rights to travel between their communities in the West Bank, and generally being broken down.

This is a gross error, simply put. If I said to you "Israelis are being pushed from their homes, bombed and murdered" it would actually be more accurate.

A lack of explicitly Jewish rule does not equate to explicitly Arab rule. It's not Jews are explicitly in charge versus Jews have no power and are subjugated.

which is why I didn't say Arab rule. The two options are that Judaism is a driving creative and defining/guiding force or it isn't. Therefore the choices are "Jewish homeland" or "not".

As for colonisation: I'm using it in the sense of settling in an area in large numbers at the expense of a group previously present. I refer to Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and their effect on the Palestinian people dwelling there (and also the situation in the Negev with the Bedouin). It's not about who has rights to do what, rights are variable depending on where you are and who you ask. I'm just referring to my own moral reaction to this situation.

Your moral reaction would be better developed if it was steeped in some other narrative rather than one that has presented that notion of "colonial Israel" to you. I don't know what sources you use, but I can refer you to a raft of them (all fully attributed) which paint quite a different picture.

I am against those countries being explicitly Christian in nature (with the exception of the Vatican).

why the exception?

A question for anybody reading: based on what I've said so far in this discussion, do you consider me to be anti-Semitic?

I don't. Should I?