Antisemitism today

[Nietzsche]

That's a bit of revisionist history. Tell that to the Jews in Hebron in 1929.

1929 is well-after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Because in 1948, there were universal rights and no one, anywhere was oppressed as a matter of institutionalized laws. So Israel is expected to behave in a way no one else is. So noted. Thank you for clarifying.

While America had Jim-Crow laws, Blacks could still technically vote. Women could vote. And I can't think of any times where Blacks neighborhoods were demolished so they could build houses for white people.

Let me put it to you like this;

This would be like an African-American "homeland" state being formed(New Africa or whatever you want to call it) in say, the Western Cape region of South Africa and then deciding to start evicting the Afrikaners who lived there prior.

 

[rosends]

1929 is well-after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

And during the Ottoman empire, there were still all sorts of oppressions of Jews (and other non Muslims).
"It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms." G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam, 1971, page 369

Ah, the good old days. Limitations on where a Jew can live, an extra tax, maybe a blood libel...

History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you can scroll down to "antisemitism." Fun stuff

 

[Nietzsche]

And during the Ottoman empire, there were still all sorts of oppressions of Jews (and other non Muslims).
"It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms." G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam, 1971, page 369

Ah, the good old days. Limitations on where a Jew can live, an extra tax, maybe a blood libel...

History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you can scroll down to "antisemitism." Fun stuff

You tend to rack up human rights abuses when your state is 600+ years old. The Ottoman Empire of the late 1800s and beginning of the 1900s was, when compared to neighbouring states like the Tsardom of Russia, the Greek Kingdom as well as most of the Balkans in general, was a downright liberal utopia. Not the best place by our standards, nor the best place even in 1900, but far and away not the worst either.

They kept the entire region(the Middle East) rather quiet. And until the British stoked the fires of Nationalism, things looked like they could only continue as peaceful and such. But, well. We see what we have now.

Yes, I would prefer the Ottoman Empire over what we have now. Any day of the week.

 

[rosends]

You tend to rack up human rights abuses when your state is 600+ years old. The Ottoman Empire of the late 1800s and beginning of the 1900s was, when compared to neighbouring states like the Tsardom of Russia, the Greek Kingdom as well as most of the Balkans in general, was a downright liberal utopia. Not the best place by our standards, nor the best place even in 1900, but far and away not the worst either.

They kept the entire region(the Middle East) rather quiet. And until the British stoked the fires of Nationalism, things looked like they could only continue as peaceful and such. But, well. We see what we have now.

Yes, I would prefer the Ottoman Empire over what we have now. Any day of the week.

So you would prefer a state which had pogroms and blood libels and where I, as a Jew, would be subject to specific and discriminatory laws and expectations. That's not a version of "peace" that I would prefer.

 

[Nietzsche]

So you would prefer a state which had pogroms and blood libels and where I, as a Jew, would be subject to specific and discriminatory laws and expectations. That's not a version of "peace" that I would prefer.

I imagine that in the span of 100 years it would've liberalized even more so, just like the rest of Europe did.

 

[rosends]

I imagine that in the span of 100 years it would've liberalized even more so, just like the rest of Europe did.

Of course, because to aspire to be like Europe in the 20th century vis-a-vis Jews is a good thing. No pogroms or blood libels there...

 

[Nietzsche]

Of course, because to aspire to be like Europe in the 20th century vis-a-vis Jews is a good thing. No pogroms or blood libels there...

Funny. You know what I meant. Doing this only serves to make me ask why I bother when you're just going to deliberately misunderstand me.

 

[rosends]

Funny. You know what I meant. Doing this only serves to make me ask why I bother when you're just going to deliberately misunderstand me.

I don't think I misunderstand you at all. In fact, I think I see quite clearly what you are saying. Of course, it makes me wonder why I bother responding when you are going to say something else which is obviously incorrect or problematic.

 

[Nietzsche]

I don't think I misunderstand you at all. In fact, I think I see quite clearly what you are saying. Of course, it makes me wonder why I bother responding when you are going to say something else which is obviously incorrect or problematic.

Are you arguing, then, that 20th Century Europe treated their Jews worse than 19th-18th-ect century Europe? Ignore the Holocaust*, take into account everything else. Was persecution in Europe in the 20th century worse or better than the centuries prior?


*Regarding the Holocaust; the Holocaust is an extremely unique event in history. In that regard it is very much like a nuclear bomb. For an atomic bomb to work, a series of events has to happen in a precise order, the smallest deviation will prevent fission from occurring and you're left with an explosion no greater than the actual explosives in it. albeit an extremely dirty one.

For the Holocaust to occur you need a deeply demoralized, beaten & broken country. Then you need some other source of hardship(runaway inflation, ect). Then you require an extremely unique political party to take power with an incredibly charismatic leader who will direct that hate and anger onto an extremely visible minority. And once you've done that, you need about a decade(1933-1943) of internal development that results in an all-seeing police state staffed with sociopaths & yes-men who are capable of over-powering any dissent from within the organs of government.

And that's just to get the paperwork started. The number of things that have to right(or, well, horribly wrong) is staggering. If you were to "rerun" the situation(starting in, say 1928) you would not end up with a "holocaust" event. Pogroms, probably. Discrimination, certainly. But industrialized mass-murder? That's a one in a hundred-million kind of thing. It's not something that just happens.

 

[rosends]

Are you arguing, then, that 20th Century Europe treated their Jews worse than 19th-18th-ect century Europe? Ignore the Holocaust*, take into account everything else. Was persecution in Europe in the 20th century worse or better than the centuries prior?


*Regarding the Holocaust; the Holocaust is an extremely unique event in history. In that regard it is very much like a nuclear bomb. For an atomic bomb to work, a series of events has to happen in a precise order, the smallest deviation will prevent fission from occurring and you're left with an explosion no greater than the actual explosives in it. albeit an extremely dirty one.

For the Holocaust to occur you need a deeply demoralized, beaten & broken country. Then you need some other source of hardship(runaway inflation, ect). Then you require an extremely unique political party to take power with an incredibly charismatic leader who will direct that hate and anger onto an extremely visible minority. And once you've done that, you need about a decade(1933-1943) of internal development that results in an all-seeing police state staffed with sociopaths & yes-men who are capable of over-powering any dissent from within the organs of government.

And that's just to get the paperwork started. The number of things that have to right(or, well, horribly wrong) is staggering. If you were to "rerun" the situation(starting in, say 1928) you would not end up with a "holocaust" event. Pogroms, probably. Discrimination, certainly. But industrialized mass-murder? That's a one in a hundred-million kind of thing. It's not something that just happens.

After I stopped laughing at the "ignore the Holocaust" I looked at the question and then I put it in the context of what you have already said. Maybe you forget. You were pointing out that the Ottoman empire would have "liberalized even more so, just like the rest of Europe did." Maybe you forget. So when I point out that the ideal of a "liberalized" Europe as the next model-step for the Ottoman empire is specious as Europe was not a thing to be admired, you move the goal posts and say "yeah, but Europe (aside from the Holocaust) wasn't as bad as it had been earlier." But that isn't the question. The question is whether the Ottomans, left to their own devices, would have, in 100 years, turned into a place which was what you claimed it was 100 years earlier ("Jews, Christians & Muslims had equal rights and could come & go through the Holy Land as they pleased.")

The point is that your initial claim about life under Ottoman rule was wrong. Then your claim about what could have developed under Ottoman rule was wrong. So making a new statement that things in Europe weren't really that bad (by the way, blood libels persist in areas of the former Soviet Union to this day) is not helpful.