Antisemitism today

[JRMcC]

Based on what? I have not presented a single opinion about Arabs, just about a behavior if it is presented. I make a blanket statement about all people: "If X hate Jews then they are anti-Semitic." I used Arabs because I was responding to "If Arabs hate zionist Jews, how can they be called Anti-semites?"

So before you level ridiculous accusations, try to read up on what's going on.

Oh wow I missed the word if... Uggh. I'm sorry I threw you into a group of people without thinking twice.

 

[JRMcC]

Oh and btw "likely" implies that the chances are way over 50% that it actually happens. So in a way you do say that it happens anytime.

How about this statement: If you're going to be called antisemitic (assuming this "you" is not actually antisemitic), it's almost certainly going to be when you're presenting a pro-palestine opinion.

 

[Yerda]

Who's saying that they are selling them the weapons? It's actually quite simple. Take a town near the border. When the state sponsored Trucks arrive all mobile phones get scrambled until the convoy has passed into Syria.

Meanwhile turkish border guards let all western Jihadists into Syria and even out again.
But I don't really have the time to find the source, take that however you will.

I'll take your word for it.

And why it would be a waste of time to protest against such a blood thirsty group is currently eluding me.

Because it has no effect.

 

[Yerda]

No. I belong to a people who learned that silence equals death. Deciding that someone is not worth protesting over leads to the expansion of that lunacy until it becomes a nuclear power run by lunatics, which makes public statements about wiping my country off the map. And then no one wants to protest it either.

I've just explained in the post you quoted why it is no use protesting against ISIS. I don't know how to deal with them. If I could eradicate them tomorrow I would, but I can't. Perhaps you know what to do.

If I name a country where Jews are not given certain rights, or gays are oppressed, or Christians are being killed, or women cannot live their lives as equals, will you be out to protest bright and early?

Will you?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Antisemitism... another western terminology that screws things up

What does it even mean and how did it come to existence?

No, I don't hate Jewish people.

 

[Flankerl]

I was countering the idea that there isn't discrimination along ethnoreligious lines in the State of Israel due to their being non-Jews there. This doesn't hold true to me.

This doesn't hold true in any country. Yet Arabs in Israel have a far better life than in any other Arab country.

As well as my previous points regarding the effects of calling a state explicitly Jewish on its non-Jewish inhabitants, this isn't everything. Israeli law is partly made up of halakhic law, which means that non-Jewish people, and indeed Jewish people, are obligated to live under a religious legal system.

Wait what? Are you seriously claiming that Israeli law is partly made up of Halakha?

You better provide some evidence to let me facepalm through my head.

Inb4 it's about marriage. (don't even do it because I can easily claim it's actually made up of Sharia or Christian law....)

You're implying by this that I'm somehow fine with that, when I've never said was. I am against those countries being explicitly Christian in nature (with the exception of the Vatican). I am a non-Christian who has spent their life in a nation which is proclaimed to be Christian.

lol why does the Vatican get a free pass?

I am by no means in favour of your being obligated to observe Christian holidays, or, in reference to other posts, your having to swear on the Bible, go to Churches, etc. Why do you think I am?

Fun fact: You don't have to swear upon the Tanakh in Israel or go to Synagogues...

A question for anybody reading: based on what I've said so far in this discussion, do you consider me to be anti-Semitic?

No i'd use a different word.

Yes. It was removed because of the worst portion of Israelis(the ultra-Orthodox) didn't think the exclusivist policy wasn't exclusive enough. However, it is becoming clear that you're only interested in denying the very real abuses, that anyone with a two-minute Google search could find, and then when presented with it justifying it with poorly researched quasi-history as if that means anything in the present day.

I like you. I want to continue liking you, so I'm done with this thread.

So you can't produce some evidence that it directly lead to discrimination.
Actually when I think about it Druze probably get less positive discrimination since it was abolished.

Also I am not denying real abuses, it's just that I am not seeing it with the Ethnicity on the ID Card.

Also have fun.

It's only "their capital" because they took it and then ignored the treaties they signed saying that they would leave the Eastern Half to the Palestinians.

Uhm no nothing like that was signed. Not even within the Oslo Accords.
And of course Israel took it. Ever since then Mosques weren't torn down and Muslims are allowed to pray there. Contrary to what the Jordanians did after 48.
It's also ridiculous to separate the city again. Unless one likes minefields, checkpoints, barbed wire, snipers and tank traps.

If Israel had what amounts to "cultural baggage" dating back a few hundred years, and a state-system it had to work within equally as old(hundreds of years), this might be a legitimate point. But it's not. It was founded in 1948 by a people who knew what oppression was, and they still took the land from those who were there before them.

It was war. If the Arabs hadn't attacked nothing would have happened.

Palestine has seen all sorts of people live there over the centuries. Trying to suggest the people whose families have lived in the region for centuries are somehow 'foreign Arabs' as opposed to the millions of recent immigrant and their descendants from Europe who live in Israel is absurd.

Fun fact: Quite a lot of Palestinians are descendants of immigrants from Egypt. And no not from the 15th century. Rather the 18th and 19th.

Actually I think it is the other way around. Israel really has no concept of civic nationalism, as we do in the States or as can be found in some European countries, including France. Personal status is bound to one's confessional identity, and even if the personal status laws were changed to overcome current impediments to secular marriages being performed in Israel, for example, there is still a distinction drawn between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens. Not saying that they do not have rights, but they certainly don't have anything like the Law of Return, and the state isn't trying to guarantee their demographic majority status.

And another fun fact: Quite some countries in Europe have a Right of return which make
For example the country where I currently live. I even see people who made use of it on a daily basis.

Right of return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about this statement: If you're going to be called antisemitic (assuming this "you" is not actually antisemitic), it's almost certainly going to be when you're presenting a pro-palestine opinion.

No because most people who get called it are presenting racist ideas which are commonly found in Nationalsocialism.

I'll take your word for it.

Because it has no effect.

Wait you actually think people in Israel care about you protesting?

 

[Kirran]

This doesn't hold true in any country. Yet Arabs in Israel have a far better life than in any other Arab country.

No, it doesn't.

Who are you to say that? Arabs have a better life in Israel than in any Arab country. That's unquantifiable.

Wait what? Are you seriously claiming that Israeli law is partly made up of Halakha?

You better provide some evidence to let me facepalm through my head.

Inb4 it's about marriage. (don't even do it because I can easily claim it's actually made up of Sharia or Christian law....)

I have read that certain aspects of 'family and personal status law' are derived from halakhic law. Is this applicable only to Jews? I don't know anything more, so please tell me.

EDIT: How do you pronounce Halakha? Is the 'kh' pronounced as that kind of guttural noise which is found in German, Welsh, Spanish, etc.? In Spanish mejor?

lol why does the Vatican get a free pass?

Because the Vatican exists as a sovereign entity so as to stop Italy from having the privilege of hosting the Holy See, and make it more impartial. It is occupied only by clergy, the Swiss Guard etc.

Fun fact: You don't have to swear upon the Tanakh in Israel or go to Synagogues...

Alright. I'm in agreement with that policy.

No i'd use a different word.

Care to share it?

 

[Yerda]

Wait you actually think people in Israel care about you protesting?

Some might. Infact, I'm sure there are many Israelis who don't want their military to be the focus of worldwide media attention. That's not the point though.

The protests all over Europe and North America during last year's outbreak of violence probably put a little diplomatic pressure on the Israeli administration. If that meant that there was a bit more restraint (and I'd be one of the people who would agree that Israel is more restrained than most) then great. If not, ah well. I didn't go. I can't stand listening to the rhetoric. I know that there was a lot said about UK arms sales to Israel. I'd support less arms sales in general, but I recognise that we don't have any real direct democratic control over a the arms trade (and I'd be astonished if UK companies aren't arming both sides anyway - they're good at that).

Anyway, going back the point. Some action in some contexts can have an effect. Protest sometimes has a little effect. It apparently had some effect on the British in India. It apparently had some effect on the apartheid in South Africa. With ISIS I'm inclined to say no chance. Maybe I'm wrong, if you know of any act that would help I'm listening.

 

[CMike]

This is one of the main purposes of Israel.

Israel is where a Jew can be a Jew without fear of naked antisemitism.

Anti-semitism (naked hatred of Jews) has been on the rise in Europe, and especially France.

Israel allows these Jews some place to go.

 

[CMike]

No, it doesn't.

Who are you to say that? Arabs have a better life in Israel than in any Arab country. That's unquantifiable.

That's not true, one measurement is income.

The arabs in Israel have a much higher median income.

I can't remember the exact numbers, I'll have to research it and report back at a later time.

 

[Yerda]

That's not true, one measurement is income..

We could probably also compare civil liberties, employment opportunities, freedom from violence, discrimination etc. You would have to expect Israeli Arabs to come out better in most if not all categories.

 

[CMike]

We could probably also compare civil liberties, employment opportunities, freedom from violence, discrimination etc. You would have to expect Israeli Arabs to come out better in most if not all categories.

That's true. Also the right of women to drive without being whipped...

 

[Flankerl]

Some might. Infact, I'm sure there are many Israelis who don't want their military to be the focus of worldwide media attention. That's not the point though.

The protests all over Europe and North America during last year's outbreak of violence probably put a little diplomatic pressure on the Israeli administration. If that meant that there was a bit more restraint (and I'd be one of the people who would agree that Israel is more restrained than most) then great. If not, ah well. I didn't go. I can't stand listening to the rhetoric. I know that there was a lot said about UK arms sales to Israel. I'd support less arms sales in general, but I recognise that we don't have any real direct democratic control over a the arms trade (and I'd be astonished if UK companies aren't arming both sides anyway - they're good at that).

Anyway, going back the point. Some action in some contexts can have an effect. Protest sometimes has a little effect. It apparently had some effect on the British in India. It apparently had some effect on the apartheid in South Africa. With ISIS I'm inclined to say no chance. Maybe I'm wrong, if you know of any act that would help I'm listening.

You know what's funny? For a Jew living in Europe the protests meant something far different than for example you.

Also a little bit more restraint is still ridiculous. Over 60.000 Artillery shells and Bombs where send towards Gaza yet only some +2.000 people died.
To see the difference just look up the Battle of Grozny during the second Chechen War. There were even far less civilians inside the city, yet the Russian Army managed to kill almost everyone.

You seem to think protest can only reach those who do stuff you disagree with. But you can also protest against IS in a way that you'd want certain countries or organisations to deal with them.

No, it doesn't.

Who are you to say that? Arabs have a better life in Israel than in any Arab country. That's unquantifiable.

Well okay I guess it depends. If you are a masochist you probably enjoy your life in the Arab countries far more.

I have read that certain aspects of 'family and personal status law' are derived from halakhic law. Is this applicable only to Jews? I don't know anything more, so please tell me.

So it is about Marriage.
For Jews Halakha is somewhat binding.
For Muslims Sharia is somewhat binding.
For Christians.........

Before 2014 there was no civil union in Israel, if you wanted to circumvent it you made a short vacation in Cyprus and married your Muslim/Jewish/Druze/Christian partner there. Upon return Israel completely accepted this civil marriage.
This is no longer needed. Though if it was me I'd still do it because of the obvious vacation in Cyprus.

Marriage in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: How do you pronounce Halakha? Is the 'kh' pronounced as that kind of guttural noise which is found in German, Welsh, Spanish, etc.? In Spanish mejor?

I think yes but then again I don't speak Spanish. As someone living in Germany my example would be the Swiss German ch. Linguistically a Swiss Jew is the biggest catastrophe upon mankind. It's basically just a constant ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr regardless of what they say.

Because the Vatican exists as a sovereign entity so as to stop Italy from having the privilege of hosting the Holy See, and make it more impartial. It is occupied only by clergy, the Swiss Guard etc.

Well you know from a Jewish POV we are "clergy" too.

 

[Kirran]

Well okay I guess it depends. If you are a masochist you probably enjoy your life in the Arab countries far more.

I feel we're going to get side-tracked here. I still think that it's removing from the discussion to compare Israel to other countries, rather than discuss any of its perceived failings on their own merits.

So it is about Marriage.
For Jews Halakha is somewhat binding.
For Muslims Sharia is somewhat binding.
For Christians.........

Before 2014 there was no civil union in Israel, if you wanted to circumvent it you made a short vacation in Cyprus and married your Muslim/Jewish/Druze/Christian partner there. Upon return Israel completely accepted this civil marriage.
This is no longer needed. Though if it was me I'd still do it because of the obvious vacation in Cyprus.

Marriage in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you sure it is only in relation to marriage? If so, I withdraw the objection.

Are there any particular restrictions or discriminations against atheists, Buddhists, Hindus etc in regards to their marriage?

I think yes but then again I don't speak Spanish. As someone living in Germany my example would be the Swiss German ch. Linguistically a Swiss Jew is the biggest catastrophe upon mankind. It's basically just a constant ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr regardless of what they say.

Yeah, there's a ch for the same sound in Welsh That sounds pretty fun to listen, although understanding might be somewhat lacking.

A first-language-Welsh Jew would also sound quite amazing, but I don't know if there are any.

Well you know from a Jewish POV we are "clergy" too.

How do you mean? That's interesting to hear you say that, it's somewhat similar to the Sikh view.

I think the equivalent of the Vatican would be a group of rabbis and associated people living in a sovereign cluster of synagogues and associated buildings, with a population 100% immigrants.

 

[Yerda]

You know what's funny? For a Jew living in Europe the protests meant something far different than for example you.

Also a little bit more restraint is still ridiculous. Over 60.000 Artillery shells and Bombs where send towards Gaza yet only some +2.000 people died.
To see the difference just look up the Battle of Grozny during the second Chechen War. There were even far less civilians inside the city, yet the Russian Army managed to kill almost everyone.

You seem to think protest can only reach those who do stuff you disagree with. But you can also protest against IS in a way that you'd want certain countries or organisations to deal with them.

Aye, you're right. Points taken.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I
Yeah, there's a ch for the same sound in Welsh That sounds pretty fun to listen, although understanding might be somewhat lacking.

A first-language-Welsh Jew would also sound quite amazing, but I don't know if there are any.

.

As a young boy living just outside cardigan Wales. we had a saying about the business aucum and tight fisted nature of the towns people.
" The only Jew who ever traded in Cardigan market went broke."

 

[Kirran]

As a young boy living just outside cardigan Wales. we had a saying about the business aucum and tight fisted nature of the towns people.
" The only Jew who ever traded in Cardigan market went broke."

Haha, I'd never picked up on that reputation of Cardigan's.

And hey, we grew up in the same county. I grew up in the countryside between Tregaron and Lampeter.

 

[rosends]

No, but Jews, Christians & Muslims had equal rights and could come & go through the Holy Land as they pleased.

That's a bit of revisionist history. Tell that to the Jews in Hebron in 1929.

Cultural Baggage. I stated this. They were a product of their time. Israel doesn't get that luxury.

Because in 1948, there were universal rights and no one, anywhere was oppressed as a matter of institutionalized laws. So Israel is expected to behave in a way no one else is. So noted. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[rosends]

Might as well say the Jews 'moved to the area' from Egypt.

Palestine has seen all sorts of people live there over the centuries. Trying to suggest the people whose families have lived in the region for centuries are somehow 'foreign Arabs' as opposed to the millions of recent immigrant and their descendants from Europe who live in Israel is absurd.

Trying to claim that the Jews are recent immigrants but that there were masses of Arabs who lived in the region is similarly silly. The documentation and censuses show a small population bolstered by waves of immigration of all people over time.

 

[rosends]

Will you?

Of course not! What's the use in protesting against lunatics? I won't make any difference or effect any change.