Antisemitism today

[metis]

With all due respect, I think this is a false equivalency. A Somali and an Indian could both move to France, and become French. Or at the very least, their children could be French.

Neither could move to Israel and become Jewish.

There are Arabs, for example many Druze, who identify as Israeli but are not Jewish.

Anyone who moves and lives in Israel is an "Israeli", but "Jewish" is a nationality that does not cover all whom live in Israel. Israel was created as a Jewish state, but that doesn't logically mean that Israelis all are Jewish. So, you're sort of conflating terminology here.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and Fetah controls very little of the territory in the West Bank. The A zones are a minority of the land there.

El-Fatah does indeed control the vast majority of the West Bank.

But yes, I'm in favour of religious freedom in the West Bank and Gaza and of elections and religious freedom in Saudi Arabia.

Good.

 

[gsa]

Anyone who moves and lives in Israel is an "Israeli", but "Jewish" is a nationality that does not cover all whom live in Israel. Israel was created as a Jewish state, but that doesn't logically mean that Israelis all are Jewish. So, you're sort of conflating terminology here.

Actually I think it is the other way around. Israel really has no concept of civic nationalism, as we do in the States or as can be found in some European countries, including France. Personal status is bound to one's confessional identity, and even if the personal status laws were changed to overcome current impediments to secular marriages being performed in Israel, for example, there is still a distinction drawn between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens. Not saying that they do not have rights, but they certainly don't have anything like the Law of Return, and the state isn't trying to guarantee their demographic majority status.

Now, maybe Israel's form of ethnic nationalism is defensible as a practical matter. But it isn't comparable to civic nationalism.

 

[Kirran]

Anyone who moves and lives in Israel is an "Israeli", but "Jewish" is a nationality that does not cover all whom live in Israel. Israel was created as a Jewish state, but that doesn't logically mean that Israelis all are Jewish. So, you're sort of conflating terminology here.

I don't think I am. I'm saying I'm fully supportive of Israel as an 'Israeli state'. Not as a Jewish state.

El-Fatah does indeed control the vast majority of the West Bank.

I don't believe that's the case. This map shows the varying levels of jurisdiction in the West Bank as per the Oslo Agreement. Only the 'A' zones are under Fatah's control.

I may be wrong, please educate me if so.

Good.

Well, I'm glad we're in agreement there

 

[Kirran]

Actually I think it is the other way around. Israel really has no concept of civic nationalism, as we do in the States or as can be found in some European countries, including France. Personal status is bound to one's confessional identity, and even if the personal status laws were changed to overcome current impediments to secular marriages being performed in Israel, for example, there is still a distinction drawn between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens. Not saying that they do not have rights, but they certainly don't have anything like the Law of Return, and the state isn't trying to guarantee their demographic majority status.

Now, maybe Israel's form of ethnic nationalism is defensible as a practical matter. But it isn't comparable to civic nationalism.

This is put far better than I've managed so far.

 

[gsa]

This is put far better than I've managed so far.

I think you are doing fine. I just don't think it is an easy topic to discuss. The problem is, for now, intractable.

The other problem is, were I a Jewish Israeli, I would probably scoff at the binational solution as well. Even if I were a lefty and opposed the colonization of the West Bank and the attacks on Gaza. Palestinian anti-Semitism and Islamic fundamentalism is very real, and unlike Israelis I don't live next to it.

 

[Kirran]

I think you are doing fine. I just don't think it is an easy topic to discuss. The problem is, for now, intractable.

The other problem is, were I a Jewish Israeli, I would probably scoff at the binational solution as well. Even if I were a lefty and opposed the colonization of the West Bank and the attacks on Gaza. Palestinian anti-Semitism and Islamic fundamentalism is very real, and unlike Israelis I don't live next to it.

To be honest, I supported the two-state solution for quite a while. But I don't think it's tenable anymore.

No, of course, it's hard to understand from the outside. While the anti-Semitism by the Palestinians isn't to be condoned by any means, you can see how it's been stirred up by generations of marginalisation.

I have a few good friends back in Wales who are of Palestinian origin, and they have had some trouble throwing off the idea that it is Jews, as opposed to the Israeli government, who razed their father's home in Jerusalem to the ground and drove his family from Palestine/Israel.

 

[metis]

Actually I think it is the other way around. Israel really has no concept of civic nationalism, as we do in the States or as can be found in some European countries, including France.

Actually there is but certainly not all feel enfranchised as such. Many Palestinians see themselves as Israelis first, but a great many don't. In many European countries as we've seen, many Muslims feel quite disenfranchised.

But, one needs to remember this, Arabs living in Israel can leave any time they want, but you don't see a line-up of them doing so, and that should tell anyone something. When push comes to shove, we see Arabs living in Israel acting like Israelis when attacked by groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, and other hostile Arabic groups, and I do believe the vast majority there would dread the thought of either taking over Israel.

Personal status is bound to one's confessional identity, and even if the personal status laws were changed to overcome current impediments to secular marriages being performed in Israel, for example, there is still a distinction drawn between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens. Not saying that they do not have rights, but they certainly don't have anything like the Law of Return, and the state isn't trying to guarantee their demographic majority status.

Secular marriages are not restricted but Jewish marriages are to conform to the orthodox practice. The Law of Return is not guaranteed to Arabs for historic and demographic reasons.

Now, maybe Israel's form of ethnic nationalism is defensible as a practical matter. But it isn't comparable to civic nationalism.

Overstated.

 

[gsa]

To be honest, I supported the two-state solution for quite a while. But I don't think it's tenable anymore.

No, of course, it's hard to understand from the outside. While the anti-Semitism by the Palestinians isn't to be condoned by any means, you can see how it's been stirred up by generations of marginalisation.

I have a few good friends back in Wales who are of Palestinian origin, and they have had some trouble throwing off the idea that it is Jews, as opposed to the Israeli government, who razed their father's home in Jerusalem to the ground and drove his family from Palestine/Israel.

I don't think that the two state solution is tenable either, and I blame that largely on the colonization of the West Bank. But since I don't think that there's any other solution around the corner, I also think that we are unlikely to see a binational solution in the near future.

I agree that the motivation for Palestinian anti-Semitism is different than, say, European anti-Semitism, but I also don't know that it makes a difference and might make it more difficult to eliminate. For decades now, Palestinians have experienced Israel as an oppressive force that denies them any room for self-determination and periodically kills large numbers of them. All on behalf of a state that more or less claims it is acting in the interests of Jews worldwide. Were I in their shoes, I don't know that I would be in a forgiving mood.

As I said, an intractable problem.

 

[Kirran]

Actually there is but certainly not all feel enfranchised as such. Many Palestinians see themselves as Israelis first, but a great many don't. In many European countries as we've seen, many Muslims feel quite disenfranchised.

I think we can agree that we're against that. It doesn't have any great bearing here, unless I'm missing something.

But, one needs to remember this, Arabs living in Israel can leave any time they want, but you don't see a line-up of them doing so, and that should tell anyone something. When push comes to shove, we see Arabs living in Israel acting like Israelis when attacked by groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, and other hostile Arabic groups, and I do believe the vast majority there would dread the thought of either taking over Israel.

1) More Arabs live in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank than in Israel proper.
2) Half the global population of Palestinian people are outside Israel and Palestine, in countries such as Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Chile and the UK.
3) Living conditions are better in Israel, generally, because the Gaza Strip is underdeveloped and run by Islamic fundamentalists while the Palestinian settlements in the West Bank are disconnected and under-resourced, and driven onto bad land by Israeli settlers.

Secular marriages are not restricted but Jewish marriages are to conform to the orthodox practice. The Law of Return is not guaranteed to Arabs for historic and demographic reasons.

"You can immigrate, but only if you're the right religion or ethnicity..."

Imagine the USA restricted immigration to White Christians.

 

[Kirran]

I don't think that the two state solution is tenable either, and I blame that largely on the colonization of the West Bank. But since I don't think that there's any other solution around the corner, I also think that we are unlikely to see a binational solution in the near future.

I think the far higher birth rates of Arabs, both in Israel and the Palestinian territories, will eventually tip things into it. It's been proclaimed that once the Jewish population drops below 70% Israel can no longer call itself a Jewish state. It's at 75% and dropping. I reckon it'll remain Jewish officially for longer than that, but still, once it reaches 40% Arab, it becomes ridiculous.I can see that happening in time too, especially as Arabs remain marginalised, and the West Bank is incorporated.

I agree that the motivation for Palestinian anti-Semitism is different than, say, European anti-Semitism, but I also don't know that it makes a difference and might make it more difficult to eliminate. For decades now, Palestinians have experienced Israel as an oppressive force that denies them any room for self-determination and periodically kills large numbers of them. All on behalf of a state that more or less claims it is acting in the interests of Jews worldwide. Were I in their shoes, I don't know that I would be in a forgiving mood.

Actually, that's another point in favour of my argument against Israel being a Jewish state - there are plenty of Jews who decry its actions, and yet nevertheless it is claiming to represent them, and thus acting as a force to increase anti-Semitism by itself conflating Zionism with Judaism.

 

[metis]

I don't think I am. I'm saying I'm fully supportive of Israel as an 'Israeli state'. Not as a Jewish state.

But it was created as a Jewish state by more than a 2/3 majority of the U.N. states. .

I don't believe that's the case. This map shows the varying levels of jurisdiction in the West Bank as per the Oslo Agreement. Only the 'A' zones are under Fatah's control.

I may be wrong, please educate me if so.

No, I'm wrong in how I worded it. Israel exercises control over 61%, but el-Fatah is allowed to exercise limited sovereignty over that area minus where the Jewish settlements are located. My mistake.

 

[gsa]

Actually there is but certainly not all feel enfranchised as such. Many Palestinians see themselves as Israelis first, but a great many don't. In many European countries as we've seen, many Muslims feel quite disenfranchised.

The vast majority do not, from what I have read. As for Muslims in Europe, different issues involved, and it varies considerably.

But, one needs to remember this, Arabs living in Israel can leave any time they want, but you don't see a line-up of them doing so, and that should tell anyone something. When push comes to shove, we see Arabs living in Israel acting like Israelis when attacked by groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, and other hostile Arabic groups, and I do believe the vast majority there would dread the thought of either taking over Israel.

Well naturally they don't want to leave their home, but they do have an interest in stopping the West Bank colonization and the attacks on the Gaza Strip, and a substantial percentage of Jewish Israelis, if not an outright majority, consider them to be a fifth column. Do they want to live under Hamas or Hezbollah? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that they want to live under the reigning consensus in Israel, either.

Secular marriages are not restricted but Jewish marriages are to conform to the orthodox practice.

Really? You can get married outside of the Orthodox, RCC or Muslim confessional communities, if you have a confessional status? Things have changed since July?

This religious monopoly, which has no equal among other Western democracies, puts people whose religious status is registered as “other” in a particularly precarious position. This mainly affects immigrants from the former Soviet Union who received Israeli citizenship because they had at least one Jewish parent or grandparent, but are not considered Jews under religious law, which require a person’s mother to be Jewish.


In 2010, in an attempt to solve this issue, the Knesset passed a law that recognizes civil unions, but only if both partners are registered as not belonging to any religion. Civil rights groups criticized the law for being too restrictive and stigmatizing because, in practice, it forces these immigrants to marry only amongst themselves.


According to Hiddush, which filed a freedom of information request with the Interior Ministry, only an average of 18 couples a year have taken advantage of the new law.

I know why that compromise was reached, and I know there is partial recognition of civil marriages performed abroad, but Israel is among the most restrictive nations on the planet on this question.

The Law of Return is not guaranteed to Arabs for historic and demographic reasons.

Thus refuting your last point on civic nationalism.

 

[Kirran]

But it was created as a Jewish state by more than a 2/3 majority of the U.N. states.

A product of its circumstances, partly a guilt reflex.

There've been many things done in the past with the best of intentions which turned out to have negative repercussions. A great uncle of mine wrote the White Paper, so perhaps I should know.

No, I'm wrong in how I worded it. Israel exercises control over 61%, but el-Fatah is allowed to exercise limited sovereignty over that area minus where the Jewish settlements are located. My mistake.

I salute you for acknowledging it.

 

[metis]

1) More Arabs live in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank than in Israel proper.
2) Half the global population of Palestinian people are outside Israel and Palestine, in countries such as Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Chile and the UK.
3) Living conditions are better in Israel, generally, because the Gaza Strip is underdeveloped and run by Islamic fundamentalists while the Palestinian settlements in the West Bank are disconnected and under-resourced, and driven onto bad land by Israeli settlers.

Yes, but #3 is overstated. Some of the best farmland, such as in Jericho, which I visited in 1991, is actually good and productive. Yes, because of the terrain, more Palestinians in the West Bank do indeed live on more semi-arid land. BTW, Israel has very much helped Jordan, both with better agricultural technology but also allowing them to grow food on the eastern bank of the Jordan River without having to fear Israeli hostility.

"You can immigrate, but only if you're the right religion or ethnicity..."

Imagine the USA restricted immigration to White Christians.

Israel is a "Jewish state", and it was created as such for a very good reason. With the U.N. partitioning, any Arabs displaced were to be compensated by U.N. funds paid for by the U.S., but when Israel was attacked, that offer was pulled off the table.

 

[metis]

But that doesn't mean that they want to live under the reigning consensus in Israel, either.

I do believe all peoples would like to have their own sovereignty, but that's not to be confused with the fact that Arabs living in Israel would prefer to leave, which they can any time they want but haven't.

Really? You can get married outside of the Orthodox, RCC or Muslim confessional communities, if you have a confessional status? Things have changed since July?

Non-Jews can marry without going through an orthodox rabbi or a synagogue.

I know why that compromise was reached, and I know there is partial recognition of civil marriages performed abroad, but Israel is among the most restrictive nations on the planet on this question.

Only if one is Jewish. Trust me, this is a sore point for those of us Jews whom are not orthodox, and i do consider it as a black mark.

Thus refuting your last point on civic nationalism.

"Civic nationalism" is not an either/or thingy but more of a continuum. And, to repeat, Israel was created as a Jewish state and wants to remain as such, and I certainly cannot blame them for that. People who don't want to live there are free to move as we have had to move so many times from so many countries.

Why is it that these other countries can do much the same or worse, and yet we see hardly any threads on that here, but when Israel has some restrictions, we run across thread after thread about how evil we are. This gets real old after a while, let me tell ya.

 

[gsa]

"Civic nationalism" is not an either/or thingy but more of a continuum. And, to repeat, Israel was created as a Jewish state and wants to remain as such, and I certainly cannot blame them for that. People who don't want to live there are free to move as we have had to move so many times from so many countries.

Why is it that these other countries can do much the same or worse, and yet we see hardly any threads on that here, but when Israel has some restrictions, we run across thread after thread about how evil we are. This gets real old after a while, let me tell ya.

Look, I don't blame Israel for wanting to secure Israel as a Jewish homeland. And I think that it should be secured that way as part of final status. But the criticism from the left is not solely about Israel's restrictions behind the green line (many more than what we have discussed here are questionable; you only have to look to internal, Jewish-run human rights NGOs to see the problems), but also about what Israel is doing in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I don't think that the colonization of the West Bank is remotely consistent with any desire to have a two state solution or even a peaceful status with Israel's neighbors.

And believe me, I know that Israel's neighbors suck. It isn't easy living in a neighborhood where governments execute people for apostasy. But not every criticism is singling Israel out for unfair reasons. There is a certain standard that one has to meet to be a liberal democracy. And right now, to my mind, there is no liberal democracy in the Middle East, just one that comes close if you ignore the Occupation.

 

[Kirran]

Yes, but #3 is overstated. Some of the best farmland, such as in Jericho, which I visited in 1991, is actually good and productive. Yes, because of the terrain, more Palestinians in the West Bank do indeed live on more semi-arid land. BTW, Israel has very much helped Jordan, both with better agricultural technology but also allowing them to grow food on the eastern bank of the Jordan River without having to fear Israeli hostility.

Have you spent much time in Israel? Just out of curiosity. I'd like to go there sometime, I think it would be really fascinating.

Well there's plenty of good land in the West Bank, but the Israeli settlers tend to push the Palestinians off the best of it.

Israel has benefited them by allowing them to not fear its own hostility?

Israel is a "Jewish state", and it was created as such for a very good reason. With the U.N. partitioning, any Arabs displaced were to be compensated by U.N. funds paid for by the U.S., but when Israel was attacked, that offer was pulled off the table.

Well I'm against it being a Jewish state, as I say, although I acknowledge that was a product of dire circumstances.

I don't think it's fair to evict an entire nation from their land, regardless of compensation. If the Israelis were offered compensation to leave Israel, you reckon they'd go?

 

[metis]

Have you spent much time in Israel? Just out of curiosity. I'd like to go there sometime, I think it would be really fascinating.

Well there's plenty of good land in the West Bank, but the Israeli settlers tend to push the Palestinians off the best of it.

Israel has benefited them by allowing them to not fear its own hostility?

Gotta leave in a minute, but I've been to Israel twice, a couple of weeks at a time. Because of potential hostility coming out of Jordan, Israel cannot farm on the west bank of the river, but the Jordanians can on the east bank. The relationship between Israel and Jordan is actually quite good, but it's definitely kept low-key.

Gotta go, so have a nice weekend.

 

[Kirran]

Gotta leave in a minute, but I've been to Israel twice, a couple of weeks at a time. Because of potential hostility coming out of Jordan, Israel cannot farm on the west bank of the river, but the Jordanians can on the east bank. The relationship between Israel and Jordan is actually quite good, but it's definitely kept low-key.

Gotta go, so have a nice weekend.

Well Jordan has a massive population of Palestinian refugees, pushed out by Israel. This serves to explain, although not to condone, this violence.

Yeah, I'd heard that last point.

Thanks, you too, hope you have fun wherever you're going.

 

[JRMcC]

Of course the charge is sometimes used when it isn't warranted; we see people making all types of charges in all heated debates whether it is political or not.

And it's every bit as wrong as people calling Jews genocidal murders or comparing Israel to the Nazis (which are valid examples of anti-Semitism, BTW).

That's fair.