Antisemitism today

[rosends]

I support the right of Afrikaners to live in South Africa. But this doesn't mean I would have supported their ancestors colonisation of South Africa at the expense of the native peoples. Similarly, I support the right of Israelis to live in Israel. But I don't support their perpetrating violence against the Palestinians to do so.

I continue to use the term Palestinian, as, as I say, many people from that region call themselves Palestinians. That's all that's required for an ethnic or national identity.

So the Jews who called themselves Palestinian are equally Palestinian. They used the term for self identification well before the Arabs did. Do you really feel that the choice to call yourself something instantly confers ethnic or national identity?

 

[Kirran]

And I don't think that arbitrary self identification rises to the level of nationhood. Go figure.

Around 11 million people nevertheless consider themselves to be Palestinian, and their nation of origin to be Palestine.

Maybe you don't think they deserve to call themselves that, but that has little impact.

 

[rosends]

What makes Israelis a nation?

At this point, the UN vote and the recognition of it as a nation state by other countries. What makes any other country a country?

 

[rosends]

Around 11 million people nevertheless consider themselves to be Palestinian, and their nation of origin to be Palestine.

Maybe you don't think they deserve to call themselves that, but that has little impact.

OK, and maybe they think they do deserve to be called that. A lot of people think Elvis is alive also.

 

[Kirran]

So the Jews who called themselves Palestinian are equally Palestinian. They used the term for self identification well before the Arabs did. Do you really feel that the choice to call yourself something instantly confers ethnic or national identity?

Yeah, fine. I don't dispute that Jews calling themselves Palestinians, and identifying as Palestinians, are Palestinians.

If it's felt to be the case by the people identifying themselves as such, yes.

 

[Kirran]

OK, and maybe they think they do deserve to be called that. A lot of people think Elvis is alive also.

That is an incredibly insensitive comparison.

 

[Nietzsche]

So Jews do not have the "right" to live in their own country. Oh, it isn't there? To whom does it belong? TO the English? They partitioned it after taking it from the Ottomans. What about the Mamelukes? The Greeks?

In an ideal world it would indeed still be Ottoman. But the Mandate belonged to the Palestinians. In fact, during WW1, the Arabs were promised an 'Arabia', encompassing the entirety of the Middle East. But that was obviously never going to happen.

However, since we can't bring back the House of Osman, and no one would let me just evict everyone from the area until they grew the **** up and stopped acting like children, I'd settle for Israstin/Israelistine/Pasrael/Republic of the Levant/whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, what did the American colonists know of oppression when they made the United States?

Which era are we talking about? The Plymouth colonists, the Revolution..?[/QUOTE]

 

[Sunstone]

Well, what definition for nation would you mean to use? Maybe a distinct history? None. Maybe a unique heritage? None. Maybe a land with a capital and some sort of leadership? None. Instead of simply creating a nation by your own personal fiat, you could provide some standards which would allow for the United State to be a nation but New England not to be, no matter what New Englanders claim.

Do you still harbor the delusion that you have demonstrated the necessity of the standards you would impose on others before you begrudge them their self-identity? I would have thought someone as intelligent as you would be more rigorous in his thinking. Unless you apply yourself, I'm bowing out of this debate.

 

[gsa]

At this point, the UN vote and the recognition of it as a nation state by other countries. What makes any other country a country?

So a UN vote and/or recognition by other countries is sufficient? OK. So Palestine exists.

 

[rosends]

That is an incredibly insensitive comparison.

I apologize to the Elvis fans.

 

[rosends]

In an ideal world it would indeed still be Ottoman.

why them? Did history start when they arrived?

Which era are we talking about? The Plymouth colonists, the Revolution..?

The ones who started a country in which women couldn't vote and blacks were oppressed.

 

[Kirran]

I apologize to the Elvis fans.

So many people identifying as Palestinian have died in support of that national identity.

 

[rosends]

Do you still harbor the delusion that you have demonstrated the necessity of the standards you would impose on others before you begrudge them their self-identity? I would have thought someone as intelligent as you would be more rigorous in his thinking. Unless you apply yourself, I'm bowing out of this debate.

I don't have to demonstrate particular standards -- I am relying on the international standards which exist which you refuse to apply to the "Palestinians." Until you act with rigorous consistency in your application of rules, I bow out of this conversation.

And don't patronize me -- you have no idea how intelligent I am. I'm probably an idiot. Good thing this isn't about me, but about the facts I cite.

 

[rosends]

So a UN vote and/or recognition by other countries is sufficient? OK. So Palestine exists.

Yes, now it does in some sense. I acknowledged that. But the claims that Israel replaced something called "Palestine" are thus proven false because only NOW does it exist. QED.

 

[rosends]

So many people identifying as Palestinian have died in support of that national identity.

And many people who believe in an Islamic state in Syria and the Levant have died as well.

 

[metis]

Well, I'd rather Israel was just Israel, rather than including this whole Jewish identity thing...
I support the redefinition of Israel as an Israeli state. Not a Jewish state. Jews would be involved in government in proportion to their population, and so would be fairly represented.

France is a "French state", Spain is a "Spanish state". and Israel is a "Jewish state". Being "Jewish" is a nationality, not a race nor a religion since many Jews are not involved in Judaism at all and a small number have converted to other religions but still are very much Israelis.

Also, there's roughly 1&1/2 million Arabs living in Israel, most of which are Muslim, and they have freedom of religion amongst other freedoms typically not granted to even most Arabs who live in Arab countries.

OTOH, Jews and the practice of Judaism are not allowed in either the West Band nor the Gaza Strip, so it seems to me that you should be trying to convince the Palestinians there that they need to be less oppressive. And then maybe you can work on the Saudis to actually hold elections and grant religious freedom to their own people like the Israelis do.

 

[Nietzsche]

why them? Did history start when they arrived?

No, but Jews, Christians & Muslims had equal rights and could come & go through the Holy Land as they pleased.

The ones who started a country in which women couldn't vote and blacks were oppressed.

Cultural Baggage. I stated this. They were a product of their time. Israel doesn't get that luxury.

 

[gsa]

Yes, now it does in some sense. I acknowledged that. But the claims that Israel replaced something called "Palestine" are thus proven false because only NOW does it exist. QED.

I don't think the real debate is over whether Israel "replaced" Palestine. Most people who support Palestinian rights are concerned about the rights of the population that was there when Israel was formed, including Jews and the group that ultimately became Palestinian.

Talking about ethnicity and nation this way takes us down a path that sounds dangerously close to the ethnic nationalists of Europe.

 

[Augustus]

The Basques have a unique language and a heritage/history which makes them distinct. Arabs who moved into the area do not. They would agree that they come from other Arab lands.

Might as well say the Jews 'moved to the area' from Egypt.

Palestine has seen all sorts of people live there over the centuries. Trying to suggest the people whose families have lived in the region for centuries are somehow 'foreign Arabs' as opposed to the millions of recent immigrant and their descendants from Europe who live in Israel is absurd.

 

[Kirran]

And many people who believe in an Islamic state in Syria and the Levant have died as well.

Yeah, I don't joke about that either.

France is a "French state", Spain is a "Spanish state". and Israel is a "Jewish state". Being "Jewish" is a nationality, not a race nor a religion since many Jews are not involved in Judaism at all and a small number have converted to other religions but still are very much Israelis.

With all due respect, I think this is a false equivalency. A Somali and an Indian could both move to France, and become French. Or at the very least, their children could be French.

Neither could move to Israel and become Jewish.

There are Arabs, for example many Druze, who identify as Israeli but are not Jewish.

OTOH, Jews and the practice of Judaism are not allowed in either the West Band nor the Gaza Strip, so it seems to me that you should be trying to convince the Palestinians there that they need to be less oppressive. And then maybe you can work on the Saudis to actually hold elections and grant religious freedom to their own people like the Israelis do.

I'm not in favour of that.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and Fetah controls very little of the territory in the West Bank. The A zones are a minority of the land there.

But yes, I'm in favour of religious freedom in the West Bank and Gaza and of elections and religious freedom in Saudi Arabia.