Antitheism?

[JustWondering]

Anti-theism comes off as negative, I'm not using it anymore. I'm going to use the term Pro-atheism.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

If fossils of dinosaurs didn't exist I would deny the existence of dinosaurs.

If fossils didn't exist, no one would know about dinosaurs.

So you're saying people shouldn't disagree with and speak out against bigotry that is backed in part or soley on religious grounds? I think you need to clarify your stance/argument.

My stance was quite clear. You'd be more productive to condemn the politician - who clearly has a twisted grip of religion - than to go after everyone who happens to share even a passing glance of the same religion as they.

When a religion promotes bigotry or sexism, yes, in that situation it is theisms fault.

No, it's that religion's fault. Theism is the entirety of theistic beliefs - the belief in gods. You cannot justly judge all religions by the crimes of one.

 

[LuisDantas]

How much of an active stance are you people seeing in antitheism exactly?

The way some of you talk it almost feels like it would be a paramilitary group as opposed to an ideological stance.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Personally I view it as a particularly vexing ideology; more of an annoyance than an imminent threat. It's a medium steak positon, particularly on these type of forums; not rare, and certainly not well-done.

 

[JustWondering]

If fossils didn't exist, no one would know about dinosaurs.

Possibly, but people used to believe in dragons and sea monsters. It was a hypothetical situation/example.

My stance was quite clear. You'd be more productive to condemn the politician - who clearly has a twisted grip of religion - than to go after everyone who happens to share even a passing glance of the same religion as they.

Your stance wasn't clear, because I had to ask you to clarify it. When is vocalizing your disagreement with someone about something "going after them"? Seems like you're trying to paint Pro-atheism as something sinister when, at least in my case, it's not.

No, it's that religion's fault. Theism is the entirety of theistic beliefs - the belief in gods. You cannot justly judge all religions by the crimes of one.

I stand corrected, bad wording on my part. Yes, it is that religions fault.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wold expect people to be more bothered by the insistence of some in equating theism with religion and Abrahamic religion with theism, but to each his own.

 

[JustWondering]

How much of an active stance are you people seeing in antitheism exactly?

The way some of you talk it almost feels like it would be a paramilitary group as opposed to an ideological stance.

It's an inherently negative sounding term. That's why I'm using Pro-Atheism instead now.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's an inherently negative sounding term. That's why I'm using Pro-Atheism instead now.

I won't. It feels to me like the IMO ridiculous insistence in talking about "pro-life" and "pro-choice" which serves only to create confusion and misunderstandings.

An atheist is necessarily pro-atheism. Antitheism is more specific and it is indeed antitheism.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Your stance wasn't clear, because I had to ask you to clarify it.

I suspect that my stance "was not clear" because you didn't want it to be clear. I said the exact same thing, after all.

When is vocalizing your disagreement with someone about something "going after them"?

When you say something like "theism is to blame" or, even, that you are opposing them. Does this make antitheism sinister? No. Just ideologically annoying.

 

[Kapalika]

In my experience anti-theists are defined by their universal condemnation of anything spiritual or religious irrespective of it's realness. You could come up with a very solid argument for why something spiritual is useful and they would dismiss it as nonsense or dangerous without any chance that they might be kind of close minded about it.

Atheists, meanwhile, can be open to spiritual experiences. For example Sam Harris, a very popular atheist figure, recognizes on some level the benefits of meditation and mindfulness, likely as a result of his own study of the brain and consciousness.

This isn't to say that religion as a whole is true or that I would say that spiritual experiences are supernatural. Quite the contrary I have often identified with the term "atheist" although pantheist or transtheist might be a better term, although I prefer the non-descript term "nontheist". This is probably a mirror of my nondualistic belief system, which I wouldn't say is monist either. To me, dualism and monism, atheism and theism are both dualisms in of themselves to take either side.

I think anti-theists mostly lack nuance and over generalize, although I do often find myself agreeing with certain points of theirs. So I wouldn't necessarily dismiss every argument an anti-theist had so long as it was backed up with good evidence and reason just because I don't like their overall view or attitude towards religion and spirituality. Religion is deeply flawed and I think we often need people to point that out to us.

 

[JustWondering]

I suspect that my stance "was not clear" because you didn't want it to be clear. I said the exact same thing, after all.

No, I thought we were having a new debate about how rational people were and you were stuck on your idea that politicians who pass/try to pass bigotry based legislature do so on their own with no support from anyone. We were on different pages.

 

[Curious George]

IMO this smacks of 'I don't hate gays, I love gays. I just hate homosexuality.' Either the hatred of the practice or hatred of the person thinly veiled as hatred of the practice would be bigoted in my view. Someone saying 'I think mixed racial marriages are harmful' would pretty much always be considered racism, and irrational. I similarly think antitheism (as its often presented, not necessarily all cases. It's not an organized group with one POV after all) is similarly irrational because it either is blaming theism for more general problems with ideals not connected to theism or is stereotyping what theism is to a reduction to the absurd.

Interesting. To you it "smacks of." But that would be a judgement on the view correct. Then to push this further, you see the view as bigoted. Therefore by your logic you likely see the antithesis as bigots regardless of how they accord themselves. So why bother with the exception when your own stance literally oozes "I don't hate gays, I hate homosexuality" (and not by my determination but of your own). This would then tribalism and authoritarianism and literally everything else you think harmful....

Here's your mirror. Your welcome.

 

[JustWondering]

I think anti-theists mostly lack nuance and over generalize, although I do often find myself agreeing with certain points of theirs. So I wouldn't necessarily dismiss every argument an anti-theist had so long as it was backed up with good evidence and reason just because I don't like their overall view or attitude towards religion and spirituality. Religion is deeply flawed and I think we often need people to point that out to us.

I definitely lack nuance, but I would classify myself more anti-supernatural then anti-religion. If religion stays in the realm of spiritualism, whatever. When religion is used to tell people, who are not adherents of that religion how to live their lives, and/or is obviously harmful, I have to call it out. In other situations, like debating on these forums, it's mainly entertainment for me and I've learned a few things here and there.

 

[psychoslice]

It seems to be mostly emotion-driven and taken up by angry, hurting people.

Yes that can be true, but it also can work the other way around, after all there are many arrogant theist, as there are also atheist.

 

[psychoslice]

I myself am not against theism, I just don't agree with them, big difference, I don't call myself an atheist, or any label.

 

[Deathbydefault]

What are the difference between Antitheism and Atheism?

Anti-Theism is the position of those that oppose Theism.
Atheism applies to those who hold no god belief.

Is Antitheism a rational position?

I would say that the position itself does seem rational.
The idea of god(s) is irrational, so is it rational to oppose something irrational?
It really just depends on the way you go about it, imo.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Therefore by your logic you likely see the antithesis as bigots regardless of how they accord themselves.

No? Not sure where you're getting that. I'm saying the mincing position presented, which I've clarified several times throughout my posts is not encompassing of all antitheists, is flimsy. Like the people who 'hate the sin, not the sinner,' when really there's no practical difference in how they behave. Denouncing theism in a way which requires a reduction to the absurd is irrational, but legislating against theism, broadly, is bigoted, just like legislating against gay marriage or interracial marriage.

So why bother with the exception when your own stance literally oozes "I don't hate gays, I hate homosexuality" (and not by my determination but of your own). This would then tribalism and authoritarianism and literally everything else you think harmful....

I'm not an authoritarian nor presented any authoritarian view, nor am I part of a tribe, being an unaffiliated irreligious atheist.
I think you're reaching overmuch. Maybe step back and reread?

 

[icehorse]

Before I read this thread I was an anti-theist, and having read this far I still am

I read a lot of guesses in this thread that seem way off to me. I was going to try to address them all but the list got too long. But a few points:

- None of the anti-theists I know advocate for any sort of fascism or totalitarianism. Quite the opposite in fact. In my opinion fascism and totalitarianism simply attempt to establish a new set of dogma to replace religious dogma. The anti-theists I know are all opposed to dogma.
- The word "bigot" has - IMO - come to mean something different than the strict definition. The way "bigot" is typically used these days, I disagree that anti-theists are bigoted. They are however critical.
- On a personal note, I take umbrage at the religious claiming that spirituality falls into the domain of religion. Spirituality can most certainly be achieved without the use of religion, thank you very much.
- The anti-theists I know do not take a simple-minded orientation towards their criticism of theism. Of course we don't believe it's a black and white situation. Of course we understand that theism is varied and complex. IMO, some of the theism in the world is beneficial. It's just that enough of theism is counter-productive that it's worth being critical of the ideas most typically associated with theism. I don't have to be a scholar in all forms of theism to be critical of it, if I see that it's most popular forms are frequently destructive. As a parallel example, I believe it is sometimes the case that a person can be a heroin addict and benefit from heroin. (Some musicians for example have probably benefitted from heroin.) But I can still be against heroin even if it sometimes is beneficial. So please, stop with the black and white strawmanning.

btw - I haven't changed what I claim my "religion" to be, under my avatar, for several years. I have been claiming to be a spiritual anti-theist long before this thread popped up.

@Saint Frankenstein @The Ragin Pagan @Quintessence @ADigitalArtist

 

[icehorse]

A couple of reasons, I think.

First is the simple fact that "theism" is not some single thing. It's a simplistic and superficial label that tells you next to something about someone, much like the color of someone's skin or the genitals they happened to have been born with. Theism is simply acceptance of at least one deity and "deity" can literally be anything. To some people, deity is transcendent and watches over us. To some, deity is the land you walk on and the air you breathe. To others, deity is love, or awe, or creative inspiration. Or it might be all of these things and more if you're a polytheist.

Second is that the implication of being opposed to something is that you want to get rid of it. This means we're talking about ripping out what is a key component of some people's way of life and destroying it. To be blunt, it means we're talking about form of cultural genocide. And considering celebrating the gods - the practice of theism that becomes religion - creates beautiful works of art, strengthens communities, and brings meaning to people's lives, I really can't understand why anyone would want to eliminate that. Yeah, okay, so you get those things without theism? Good for you. But other people like it. Leave them alone to their favorite things. I don't burn your Star Wars DVDs, and you don't burn my Star Trek DVDs, yeah?

If you want to talk about specific abuses of theology or religion, that's fine. But the broad brush is not okay with me.

First off, see my previous post.
Second, I don't think it's appropriate for you to conflate deism with theism.
Third, to criticize something is not the same as to want to commit "cultural genocide".
Fourth, if theists would leave the world alone, I'd be less critical. But far too often theists do "burn my Star Wars DVDs" or worse. They invoke their gods to justify misogyny, pedophila, homophobia, anti-semitism and so on. They invoke their gods so that they can plunder the ecosystem. Some of them are constantly attacking secularism - the very hand that feeds them.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Atheist believe there are no gods.

Anti theists are convinced there are no gods.

Wow! Learn something everyday. I'm not an atheist!