siti
Well-Known Member
Are you kidding me? Seriously - you need to go back and read it again.I've read much of Stapp's work. He does not propose that consciousness is a product is activity happening in brains--even at the level of quanta.
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Are you kidding me? Seriously - you need to go back and read it again.I've read much of Stapp's work. He does not propose that consciousness is a product is activity happening in brains--even at the level of quanta.
Yes, that apparently is true. And several other phenomena are now known to be the product of quantum processes.
What I was asking about was implication for plants of the Penrose/Hammeroff Orch-OR hypothesis about microtubules performing quantum computations--and that this somehow gives rise to something related to consciousness.
First of all, what is consciousness? The commonsense assumption is that consciousness is a stream of experience produced by the brain. As long as the brain functions, there is consciousness; when the brain shuts down, consciousness vanishes. This, however, is not necessarily the case. It could be that our brain no more produces consciousness than the radio produces the symphony that comes through its speakers. The symphony, too, disappears when the radio is shut down, yet we know that it’s not produced by the radio. Both the radio and the brain pick up signals, transform them, and display the result in our stream of conscious experience.
So you infer that brains produce consciousness by way of cum hoc ergo propter hoc?
Can you not conclude that brains produce consciousness by way of an argument that isn't a logical fallacy?
What components in brains formulate arguments? And why hasn't some brain on this thread formulated a non-fallacious argument that consciousness is a product of something happening in brains?I don't know how you'd have an argument without a brain
I wish I had a nickel every time someone popped onto this thread with a new cum hoc ergo propter hoc argument.NFL players and others who suffer head trauma (damage to the Frontal Cortex) apparently have a statistically higher likelyhood of engaging in impulsive violent behaviour or outbursts.
There are reports of people's personalities/mental capabilities changing after certain areas of the brain are lobotomized.
Patients who suffer extreme seizures can opt to have partial lobotomies which help allieviate the symptoms.
There is plently of evidence to suggest that our consciousness is the result of nuts-and-bolts neurobiology and nothing more: no need for fancy spiritualistic interpretations of consciousness as "energy".
Define "actually dies". And what instrument did you use to measure someone's consciousness?Right, differentiating correlation from causation can be difficult. But we know that every time a person actually dies (as opposed to NDE's) there is no measurable consciousness with regard to that person.
No, not kidding. I quoted from a paper co-written by Stapp in a post to you. If you have any information contrary to what I said, then present it.Are you kidding me? Seriously - you need to go back and read it again.
Good article. It's nicely explanatory. It's oddly difficult for me to get the impression from Penrose/Hammeroff's writings that they are saying exactly what Laslo describes.I feel that consciousness can exist independently of biological brains. Microtubules are possibly structures that resonate with consciousness like a musical instrument. What is consciousness? Perhaps the function of the brain is to limit consciousness like a radio-receiver filter, not to produce it.
Cosmic Symphony: A Deeper Look at Quantum Consciousness | The Huffington Post
Talk about blowing smoke. There is no scientific study in which the authors deduced from the evidence that “when the brain dies the mind and consciousness no longer exist.” Right?The bottom line in science is when he brain dies the mind and consciousness no longer exist by the objective verifiable evidence,
Actually you quoted from a paper that cited a paper co-written by Stapp - a point that I raised, not you. That Stapp paper was actually about a quantum-mechanical view of neuroplasticity - how consciousness might affect brain function by collapsing the wave-function of the whole brain. My comment on this was:No, not kidding. I quoted from a paper co-written by Stapp in a post to you. If you have any information contrary to what I said, then present it.
...and made it clear that I agreed with it that far. Stapp sees the entire brain as a quantum mechanical system that is acted upon by 'consciousness' (which might even be what you are saying). As to where this 'consciousness' appears from, he has no clear idea as far as I can make out - but I can't see how this interpretation (of consciousness) can possibly work in the absence of a physical (quantum mechanical) 'brain'. And I can't see why the immediately antecedent 'conscious moment' (the collapsed wave function of the brain) cannot be the 'conscious' cause of the immediately subsequent one. It doesn't have to be deterministic - its a probabilistic feedback loop that leaves space for 'choice'. It doesn't have to be localised, its quantum mechanical - uncertain, unpredetermined and observer-choice-guided....that consciousness is both deeper (quantum level) and more ecological (de-localized and 'top-down') than a classical reductionist-materialist paradigm would be capable of assimilating
Talk about blowing smoke. There is no scientific study in which the authors deduced from the evidence that “when the brain dies the mind and consciousness no longer exist.” Right?
You only make such stuff up because you can't deduce from the evidence that consciousness is a product of something happening in brains. The evidence of anomalous cognition refutes the claim that consciousness is caused by brains as readily as the evidence on NDEs does.
Dr. Parnia and 30 other physicians and medical personnel show that what you claim is “the bottom line in science” is a mere falsehood:
Abstract
Background: Cardiac arrest (CA) survivors experience cognitive deficits including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It is unclear whether these are related to cognitive/mental experiences and awareness during CPR. Despite anecdotal reports the broad range of cognitive/mental experiences and awareness associated with CPR has not been systematically studied.
Methods: The incidence and validity of awareness together with the range, characteristics and themes relating to memories/cognitive processes during CA was investigated through a 4 year multi-center observational study using a three stage quantitative and qualitative interview system. The feasibility of objectively testing the accuracy of claims of visual and auditory awareness was examined using specific tests. The outcome measures were (1) awareness/memories during CA and (2) objective verification of claims of awareness using specific tests.
Results: Among 2060 CA events, 140 survivors completed stage 1 interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage 2 interviews. 46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.
http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/Journal_Resuscitation__2_.pdf
Further evidence can be found in the 3 OPs here: Do Realistic Interpretations of NDEs Imply Violation of the Laws of Physics?
Assuming that all four (or more) dimensions exhibit Euclidean geometry. If one, or more, do not, then all we really have is an approximation in three Euclidean dimensions. We have no way of knowing whether this is actually true or just a perfectly repeatable observation because that's the only way we can see it.
Here is the link to the paper I quoted from, co-written by Stapp: Quantum physics in neuroscience and psychology: a neurophysical model of mind–brain interactionActually you quoted from a paper that cited a paper co-written by Stapp - a point that I raised, not you.
Again, I will point out that numerous times, on this thread and that thread, I have already pointed out the straw man argument--"They're not really, really, stinking dead!" On the NDE thread, I quoted Dr. van Lommel at length on the "paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion," which is a paradox under the hypothesis that conscious phenomena are products of activity in brains " . . . because when the brain is so dysfunctional that the patient is deeply comatose, the cerebral structures, which underpin subjective experience and memory, must be severely impaired. Complex experiences such as are reported in the NDE should not arise or be retained in memory. Such patients would be expected to have no subjective experience . . ."In the case of NDE's brains do not die!
Define "actually dies". And what instrument did you use to measure someone's consciousness?
Most scientific views consider the necessity of an animal brain for the existence of a mind, and therefore a degree of consciousness.
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So, in other words, without an instrument to measure consciousness, your claim above about "what we know that every time a person actually dies" has not been tested, much less substantiated. Your claims are merely your religion. You obviously can't make an argument that consciousness is a product of something happening in brains."Actually dies" would be in this case, cessation of all cellular activity. It is easy test cells to see if they are alive or dead. What instrument do YOU use to test for consciousness? Maybe I can borrow yours.
Thank you.Max Planck, a founding father of quantum theory postulated that consciousness is fundamental.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." -- Max Planck, As quoted in The Observer (25 January 1931)