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Any Defenses of Materialism?

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It is impossible to know of they have different properties because the properties of the neural correlated events are not well know and the property of mind states have proven difficult to explicitly articulate. So..

Really? You're unaware that you can hold a brain but not a mind? Or that one is directly observable by others but not the other? Or that one fires chemicals while the other feels emotions? I realize that your position requires you to reject reasoning that questions it, but I don't believe that you're unaware of these properties for a second.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And a straw man, what did I expect?

No, try to be more accurate. Its a logical proposition you are trying to give a counter-example. Accuracy is a must.




Effectiveness of therapy please.



Ah, so it's a guess based on what you think to be true. I applaud you for finally admitting it!

Everything is a guess. The only think that is certain is "this or that experience is hapening". Rest is based on probabilities.



Does it need to be in one? An axiom is a statement or proposition that is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true. It is self evidently true that "I exist".

Its not self-evidently true that a substantial immaterial self exists perpetually in the conscious field. Please show me a standard text book on logic that says this as a logical axiom. Anything not in such textbooks is not a logical axiom. Sorry.

An example of an axiom is A being A, which is axiomatic because it cannot be argued against. There is no situation in which A is non A, and to argue for A as Non A would still rely on the axiom. The same is true of arguing "I do not exist". Who is doing the denying? How can you understand anything at all free of yourself? As with A is A, I'll ask you one final time to show an example of "I exist" being false.

Quite true. When the self exists it can make such propositions. However when it is not making such propositions, and ask "Did I exist continuously at that time in the past when there is no recollection of explicit thinking of other self-centering thoughts?" that the question becomes relevant.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Really? You're unaware that you can hold a brain but not a mind? Or that one is directly observable by others but not the other? Or that one fires chemicals while the other feels emotions? I realize that your position requires you to reject reasoning that questions it, but I don't believe that you're unaware of these properties for a second.
You can't hold the informational states of the brain processes. You are mistaken the log with the fire. Emotion is just a label that needs to described explicitly. Please try.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
No, try to be more accurate. Its a logical proposition you are trying to give a counter-example. Accuracy is a must.





Effectiveness of therapy please.





Everything is a guess. The only think that is certain is "this or that experience is hapening". Rest is based on probabilities.





Its not self-evidently true that a substantial immaterial self exists perpetually in the conscious field. Please show me a standard text book on logic that says this as a logical axiom. Anything not in such textbooks is not a logical axiom. Sorry.



Quite true. When the self exists it can make such propositions. However when it is not making such propositions, and ask "Did I exist continuously at that time in the past when there is no recollection of explicit thinking of other self-centering thoughts?" that the question becomes relevant.

Well you have no defense, reject a field of science cause you don't like it, and admit to your entire belief system being based on subjective guess work. The title of the thread has been answered.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You can't hold the informational states of the brain processes. You are mistaken the log with the fire. Emotion is just a label that needs to described explicitly. Please try.

Nah. I'm tired of arguing with someone who's logic boils down to "if it questions my beliefs it's wrong". Just more materialistic fundamentalism.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well you have no defense, reject a field of science cause you don't like it, and admit to your entire belief system being based on subjective guess work. The title of the thread has been answered.
No it has been refuted. Your one attempt to refute the logic I presented has also failed.

Put yourself in darkness and look into a lighted mirror. You won't see your image anymore. Simple.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
No it has been refuted. Your one attempt to refute the logic I presented has also failed.

Put yourself in darkness and look into a lighted mirror. You won't see your image anymore. Simple.

Whatever helps you ignore those questions my friend. Keep repeating it.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
This might help explain the unwarranted vehemence against those that report positive psi research. My opinion is they are legitimate scientists investigating legitimate questions.

First, reality does not change based on what gets published. But secondly people often don't know that psi papers get published all the time in scientific journals Psi Papers

Basically I see no valid reason to dismiss Dr. Gary Schwartz's triple blind tests of alleged gifted mediums. That is just one of a dozen things along with millions of anecdotal events that convinced me that materialism fails to understand consciousness.

Most people are ignorant of the nature of getting things published. Biases, payment for publishing, doctored results...
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This might help explain the unwarranted vehemence against those that report positive psi research. My opinion is they are legitimate scientists investigating legitimate questions.

First, reality does not change based on what gets published. But secondly people often don't know that psi papers get published all the time in scientific journals Psi Papers

Basically I see no valid reason to dismiss Dr. Gary Schwartz's triple blind tests of alleged gifted mediums. That is just one of a dozen things along with millions of anecdotal events that convinced me that materialism fails to understand consciousness.
I notice that for intercessory prayer only the papers that showed some positive correlation has been cited, not the far larger of papers that found no and even negative correlation resulting in larger analysis that eventually showed that there was no effect. Is this the case for all of them. When it comes to statistical signals, weak positive and negative correlation often crop up in samples which on further study, disappear. Thus by selectively citing only the positives, one can create a false impression (a problem that spans a lot of psychology and biological results that have shown poor repeatability). If enough evidence from large scale studies did throw up similar results consistently, it would be published front page and would be very big news.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Most people are ignorant of the nature of getting things published. Biases, payment for publishing, doctored results...
The average person is not too snobby about publications, I agree. The great thing about studying the paranormal is that there is no advanced science needed to determine if it exists, just common sense.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I notice that for intercessory prayer only the papers that showed some positive correlation has been cited, not the far larger of papers that found no and even negative correlation resulting in larger analysis that eventually showed that there was no effect. Is this the case for all of them. When it comes to statistical signals, weak positive and negative correlation often crop up in samples which on further study, disappear. Thus by selectively citing only the positives, one can create a false impression (a problem that spans a lot of psychology and biological results that have shown poor repeatability). If enough evidence from large scale studies did throw up similar results consistently, it would be published front page and would be very big news.
I was just showing the fact that psi papers appear in journals and that is no big deal. I have not looked much into intercessory prayer. I am convinced of mediumship through the quantity, quality and consistency of the evidence (including Gary Schwartz's triple-blind expirements with alleged gifted mediums). But for those with a vehement dislike of such things, they will attack anything that smacks of the paranormal and strong evidence is not going to change their minds (all positive evidence is always flawed or accomplished through cheating in some manner). One must examine the details from all sides to have an informed opnion. This topic has been an avocation of mine for decades now.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The average person is not too snobby about publications, I agree. The great thing about studying the paranormal is that there is no advanced science needed to determine if it exists, just common sense.

I don't mind advanced science at all, but there are tons of serious issues with getting papers published, what gets published, who is profiting, and so on.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I was just showing the fact that psi papers appear in journals and that is no big deal. I have not looked much into intercessory prayer. I am convinced of mediumship through the quantity, quality and consistency of the evidence (including Gary Schwartz's triple-blind expirements with alleged gifted mediums). But for those with a vehement dislike of such things, they will attack anything that smacks of the paranormal and strong evidence is not going to change their minds (all positive evidence is always flawed or accomplished through cheating in some manner). One must examine the details from all sides to have an informed opnion. This topic has been an avocation of mine for decades now.
Again, results from a single lab and researcher has little value. The results have to be replicated and validated by competing and skeptical lab and rival research group for it to gain scientific recognition. There have been several such claims made by research groups over the years that could not be replicated by others in their experiments (from very mundane things like gravity waves to things like telekinesis). Once multiple research groups confirm the results arrived at by Dr. Schwartz, it would become interesting.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The theory-based conception:

A property (object, process, event) is deific iff it either is the sort of property (object, process, event) that deific theory tells us about or else is a property (object, process, event) which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property (object, process, event) that deific theory tells us about.

Can you exemplify a deific theory ?


The object-based conception:

A property (object, process, event) is deific iff: it either is the sort of property (object, process, event) required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic deific objects (properties, processes, events) and their constituents or else is a property (object, process, event) which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property (object, process, event) required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic deific objects (properties, processes, events) and their constituents.

One might object that both conceptions are inadequate because they are circular, i.e., both appeal to the notion of something physical (a theory or an object) to characterize a physical property. But how can you legitimately explain the notion of one sort of physical thing by appealing to another?

However, the response to this is that circularity is only a problem if the conceptions are interpreted as providing a reductive analysis of the notion of the physical. But there is no reason why they should be interpreted as attempting to provide a reductive analysis. After all, we have many concepts that we understand without knowing how to analyze (cf. Lewis 1970). So there seems no reason to suppose that either the theory or object conception is providing anything else but a way of understanding the notion of the physical.


One might object that both conceptions are inadequate because they are circular, i.e., both appeal to the notion of something deific (a theory or an object) to characterize a deific property. But how can you legitimately explain the notion of one sort of deific thing by appealing to another?

However, the response to this is that circularity is only a problem if the conceptions are interpreted as providing a reductive analysis of the notion of the deific. But there is no reason why they should be interpreted as attempting to provide a reductive analysis. After all, we have many concepts that we understand without knowing how to analyze (cf. Lewis 1970). So there seems no reason to suppose that either the theory or object conception is providing anything else but a way of understanding the notion of the deific.




What a convenient rationalization for the fact that one has provided a circular definition for the one and only sort of "stuff" that is essential to one's metaphysical thesis and that requires a coherent definition in order for one's metaphysical thesis to be coherent!!

Stoljar goes on to claim that the idea of "physical" is somehow analogous to the idea of "water":

Earlier we said that the condition question was perfectly legitimate because it is legitimate to ask what the condition of being physical is that, according to physicalism, everything has. But this legitimate question should not be interpreted as the demand for a reductive analysis of the notion of the physical. Consider Thales again: it is right to ask Thales what he means by ‘water’ — and in so doing demand an understanding of the notion of water -- but it is wrong to demand of him a conceptual analysis of water.

But, unlike the idea of "physical," water is not a vacuous idea that rests on a circular definition. We don't have difficulty defining what water is:

"a transparent, odorless, tasteless liquid, a compound of hydrogen and oxygen, H 2 O, freezing at 32°F or 0°C and boiling at 212°F or 100°C, that in a more or less impure state constitutes rain, oceans, lakes, rivers, etc.: it contains 11.188 percent hydrogen and 88.812 percent oxygen, by weight." http://www.dictionary.com/browse/water?s=t

When Stoljar achieves such clarity and specificity about what the term "physical" refers to, he may be excused from engaging in any further "reductive conceptual analysis". Until then, all he has done is promote a corny metaphysical thesis whose fundamental entity (object, property, process, event) can only be defined circularly, and which has no relationship whatsoever to any scientific discipline or theory. The metaphysical thesis of physicalism is empty at its very core.

I wish to "defend" pantheism in the same way, employing exactly the ideas and assertions, as Daniel Stoljar has in "defending" physicialism in the SEP article (bolded below). In the end, you will presumably agree that I have argued for the thesis of pantheism as well (in the same way) as Stoljar has argued for the thesis of physicalism.

Physicalism is the thesis that everything is physical, or as contemporary philosophers sometimes put it, that everything supervenes on the physical.

Pantheism is the thesis that everything in its most fundamental nature is deific, or that everything supervenes on the deific.

I turn now to the condition question, the question of what it is for something (an object, an event, a process, a property) to be physical.

[. . . ]

The theory-based conception:

A property is physical iff it either is the sort of property that physical theory tells us about or else is a property which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property that physical theory tells us about.

[. . .]

The object-based conception:

A property is physical iff: it either is the sort of property required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic physical objects and their constituents or else is a property which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic physical objects and their constituents.


I turn now to the condition the question of what it is for something (an object, an event, a process, a property) to be deific.

The theory-based conception:

A property (object, process, event) is deific iff it either is the sort of property (object, process, event) that deific theory tells us about or else is a property (object, process, event) which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property (object, process, event) that deific theory tells us about.

The object-based conception:

A property (object, process, event) is deific iff: it either is the sort of property (object, process, event) required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic deific objects (properties, processes, events) and their constituents or else is a property (object, process, event) which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property (object, process, event) required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic deific objects (properties, processes, events) and their constituents.

One might object that both conceptions are inadequate because they are circular, i.e., both appeal to the notion of something physical (a theory or an object) to characterize a physical property. But how can you legitimately explain the notion of one sort of physical thing by appealing to another?

However, the response to this is that circularity is only a problem if the conceptions are interpreted as providing a reductive analysis of the notion of the physical. But there is no reason why they should be interpreted as attempting to provide a reductive analysis. After all, we have many concepts that we understand without knowing how to analyze (cf. Lewis 1970). So there seems no reason to suppose that either the theory or object conception is providing anything else but a way of understanding the notion of the physical.


One might object that both conceptions are inadequate because they are circular, i.e., both appeal to the notion of something deific (a theory or an object) to characterize a deific property. But how can you legitimately explain the notion of one sort of deific thing by appealing to another?

However, the response to this is that circularity is only a problem if the conceptions are interpreted as providing a reductive analysis of the notion of the deific. But there is no reason why they should be interpreted as attempting to provide a reductive analysis. After all, we have many concepts that we understand without knowing how to analyze (cf. Lewis 1970). So there seems no reason to suppose that either the theory or object conception is providing anything else but a way of understanding the notion of the deific.




What a convenient rationalization for the fact that one has provided a circular definition for the one and only sort of "stuff" that is essential to one's metaphysical thesis and that requires a coherent definition in order for one's metaphysical thesis to be coherent!!

Stoljar goes on to claim that the idea of "physical" is somehow analogous to the idea of "water":

Earlier we said that the condition question was perfectly legitimate because it is legitimate to ask what the condition of being physical is that, according to physicalism, everything has. But this legitimate question should not be interpreted as the demand for a reductive analysis of the notion of the physical. Consider Thales again: it is right to ask Thales what he means by ‘water’ — and in so doing demand an understanding of the notion of water -- but it is wrong to demand of him a conceptual analysis of water.

But, unlike the idea of "physical," water is not a vacuous idea that rests on a circular definition. We don't have difficulty defining what water is:

"a transparent, odorless, tasteless liquid, a compound of hydrogen and oxygen, H 2 O, freezing at 32°F or 0°C and boiling at 212°F or 100°C, that in a more or less impure state constitutes rain, oceans, lakes, rivers, etc.: it contains 11.188 percent hydrogen and 88.812 percent oxygen, by weight." http://www.dictionary.com/browse/water?s=t

When Stoljar achieves such clarity and specificity about what the term "physical" refers to, he may be excused from engaging in any further "reductive conceptual analysis". Until then, all he has done is promote a corny metaphysical thesis whose fundamental entity (object, property, process, event) can only be defined circularly, and which has no relationship whatsoever to any scientific discipline or theory. The metaphysical thesis of physicalism is empty at its very core.

Can you exemplify a 'deific theory' and a 'deific object' ?
Do you mean Thales couldn't propose water as the primary principle without defining the term with knowledge that would only be acquired thousands of years later ?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I am looking for any defenses of materialism, especially material reductionism in the mind-body problem. I am not here to put forth or support claims, I am asking those who accept materialism to present the reasoning and evidence for doing so. I have yet to seen anything outside of burden of proof games when presenting my own opinion, with not a single materialist I have talked to online or in life being willing to present their evidence or reasoning. Also, I am looking for that which suggests only materialism, as a whole position. It is already understood that there is a correlation between the brain and body, but causation has yet to be shown. I am also looking for reasoning that does not start with the assumption of material reductionism and then fill in the blanks. Of great interest and importance would be physical evidence of the mind and its contents, the mechanism by which the brain creates the mind, how a brain secretes chemicals but a mind feels and thinks, or how we can directly know the mind and the physical world only through that mind.

Thanks in advanced!

"One of the most exciting areas of study in modern neuroscience is the ability to use noninvasive techniques to study the activation of brain regions during controlled behavioral and thought experiments. The fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging), PET (positron emission tomography), and EP (echo planar) studies have revolutionized our ability to explore how thoughts, behavior and brain activation patterns correlate. The overwhelming reality of these studies has demonstrated clearly that the same thoughts in different people activate the same basic brain regions. The thought, behavior, emotions, and consciousness all appear to be reliably predicted by the activation of particular brain regions. This is very powerful evidence for materialist based explanations of the "mind" and defiantly not a prediction of any dualist model.

Beauregard's own work has demonstrated that people reliably activate the limbic and paralimbic systems when exposed to erotic material, and suppress sexual excitement using prefrontal regions.[16] This is not a unique stream of research either, as many others have demonstrated similar effects in the role of the prefrontal and limbic regions.[29][30]

Even complex ideas that are most coveted by the dualist, such as the concept of a "self," have been shown to emerge from specific brain regions. For example, when subjects were asked about memories or judgments that involved a self-references there was activation of the medial prefrontal cortex. This differed significantly from the activation pattern of thoughts that were processed about other people with no reference to a self.[31] What is really great about this is that reference to the "self" being found in the prefrontal regions correlate with studies such as Beauregard's that demonstrate that active use of our "self" to suppress thoughts also shows prefrontal activation. Multiple lines of evidence from a range of hypothesis and experiments come together to help us locate where in the brain this concept of an "I" emerges. How close are the dualists to locating the location and cause of the "mind"?

Neuroimaging is also helping us explore issues that were previously relegated to philosophical disputes. Emotions provide a great example of this; are emotions merely failures of inhibition? Are there higher order emotions (love, humor, kindness) and lower order emotions (anger, fear, disgust) or are they all at the same level? Are emotions modular and discrete or merely several valences along a continuum? Before neuroimaging these questions could only be discussed on a philosophical plan but now we have the ability to test and explore these ideas, thanks in large part to the assumption of materialist mechanisms.

Imaging studies have shown that emotions are not merely failures of inhibitory mechanisms but are specific activations of specific regions. Studies have also shown that many emotions are complex processes involving multiple regions of the brain while other emotions, such as disgust and fear, really do seem to be baser and are activated in more primitive structures.[32][33]

Perhaps most amazing, tricks that have always been relegated to the supernatural and never demonstrated are being mastered through appropriate application of materialism. Telekinesis or "mind over matter" has long been ruled over by the side-show frauds of the paranormal world. But now through the use of materialist predictions and modern technology humans really are capable of affecting matter outside themselves through thought alone. One recent study used fMRI data to allow subjects to navigate through a maze on a computer by merely thinking in which directions they wanted to move.[34] "

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-materialist_neuroscience
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Again, results from a single lab and researcher has little value. The results have to be replicated and validated by competing and skeptical lab and rival research group for it to gain scientific recognition. There have been several such claims made by research groups over the years that could not be replicated by others in their experiments (from very mundane things like gravity waves to things like telekinesis). Once multiple research groups confirm the results arrived at by Dr. Schwartz, it would become interesting.
No, things (i.e. Ganzfeld ESP experiments) can get repeated on five continents and by multiple labs and not be accepted by some. After thinking about this for years, I have come to believe it comes down to 'who' is the official determiner when some say 'Yes' and some say 'No'? On a controversial subject the answer is 'we are each our own determiner' and our conclusion holds sway over our jurisdiction of one person. I have also honestly concluded that some mainstream people are too emotionally attached to a materialist worldview trumping over these silly religious and superstitious types that their views are not to be trusted.

Fortunately, parapsychology experiments do not require equipment and science outside the scope of the intelligent layman. So, any intelligent layman can easily understand the arguments from all sides if he spends the time. Dr. Gary Schwartz's triple-blind experiments with allegedly gifted mediums rules out the traditional hot and cold reading hypothesis of the skeptics. And he is not the only one to have studied this mediumistic phenomena in a list that includes many prestigious scientists.

To me the really interesting evidence though is not from the laboratory, but from a serious analysis of 'beyond the normal' phenomena from the real world; things like verifiable NDE memories, verifiable details of childhood reincarnation memories, spirit communications to the living, and several other things.

So, to me, ruling over my jurisdiction of one person, I see all this philosophical and scientific debate between materialists and non-materialists on the nature of the mind to have been trumped by the real-world evidence.
 
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