Any Downside to Atheism?

[andys]

As a “strong atheist”, do you rule out the possibility of an entity, perhaps beyond our comprehension, existing in the universe?

I addressed that question in my post. I repeat: "For example, I may feel justified in asserting that the assertion "unicorns do exist" is unfounded and, therefore, is not known to be true. But that does not entitle me (logically) to conclude that the reciprocal negative assertion "unicorns do not exist" is true. Those horny buggers just might be good at hiding."

Therefore, it is not because I am a strong atheist, but because I am bound by the rules of logical reasoning, that I do not - I can not - rule out the possibility that there may exist some "entity" in the universe. So what? Undoubtedly, there are countless "entities" spinning around the universe; some we may discover, others we may not. What was your point in asking this trivial question?

Do understand that by not ruling out the possibility of some entity existing is not an admission that such an entity exits or that its existence is remotely likely.

Also understand that you too are equally bound by these time-tested logical rules, providing you wish to be taken seriously as a person who can reason properly.

Now, let me ask you the same question that you put to me, except I will specify the "entity" in question:
Do you rule out the possibility that a tooth fairy exists? Or that a reindeer whose red nose glows exists? Or maybe the existence of a Christian god that is actually a fairy tale?

 

[andys]

If you're waiting for a bus, the question of whether your town has transit at all speaks to whether you're wasting your time.

If you're holding out hope for a god to do something, the question of whether any gods exists is relevant in a similar way.

Sorry, the intended meaning of these two sentences eludes me.

And where do you think the idea came from that God is going to come down and make everything better? Theism.

Uh, yes...I trust you are aware that we all know this....
Was there a point you wished to make?

 

[Corkscrew]

I addressed that question in my post. I repeat: "For example, I may feel justified in asserting that the assertion "unicorns do exist" is unfounded and, therefore, is not known to be true. But that does not entitle me (logically) to conclude that the reciprocal negative assertion "unicorns do not exist" is true. Those horny buggers just might be good at hiding."

Therefore, it is not because I am a strong atheist, but because I am bound by the rules of logical reasoning, that I do not - I can not - rule out the possibility that there may exist some "entity" in the universe. So what? Undoubtedly, there are countless "entities" spinning around the universe; some we may discover, others we may not. What was your point in asking this trivial question?

Do understand that by not ruling out the possibility of some entity existing is not an admission that such an entity exits or that its existence is remotely likely.

Also understand that you too are equally bound by these time-tested logical rules, providing you wish to be taken seriously as a person who can reason properly.

Now, let me ask you the same question that you put to me, except I will specify the "entity" in question:
Do you rule out the possibility that a tooth fairy exists? Or that a reindeer whose red nose glows exists? Or maybe the existence of a Christian god that is actually a fairy tale?

I worded that question very poorly. What I was trying to get at is do you believe there could be an entity responsible for the creation of the universe. Yes, I agree, you can’t rule anything out, but I do not entertain the thought of whether or not a tooth fairy or any of the sorts exists because there is absolutely no reason why they should. I do however entertain the possibility of a creator, simply because of the undeniable existence of the universe. I feel the human race will never know the answer to this question, so it is rather pointless, but nonetheless, I do find myself contemplating it.

 

[Willamena]

Any Downside to Atheism?

Only that there's no upside.

Though I suppose the upside is also that there's no downside.

 

[outhouse]

I worded that question very poorly. What I was trying to get at is do you believe there could be an entity responsible for the creation of the universe. Yes, I agree, you can’t rule anything out, but I do not entertain the thought of whether or not a tooth fairy or any of the sorts exists because there is absolutely no reason why they should. I do however entertain the possibility of a creator, simply because of the undeniable existence of the universe. I feel the human race will never know the answer to this question, so it is rather pointless, but nonetheless, I do find myself contemplating it.

we know ancient hebrews created god in my opinion

the bible states
he created the stars in 1 day we know that is a lie
he created man in 1 day we know that is a lie
he created all the plants in a day another lie
he created woman from a rib is a lie
he created animals in 1 day is another lie
the same language before the tower of babel is a lie
he created the global flood is lie

this is the tip of the iceberg of all the lies the bible tells

so with all those blatant lies about things god created YOU with a straight face are going to tell me you think this myth created the whole universe???? :slap:

you lie to your friends and ill lie to mine but lets not lie to each other because of a 3000 year old sheep herders myth/guide for primitive people :yes:

 

[ninerbuff]

Yes. You can't start a religion, build a church and legally evade taxes. Other than that, no.

 

[Magic Man]

As a “strong atheist”, do you rule out the possibility of an entity, perhaps beyond our comprehension, existing in the universe?

An entity beyond our comprehension? Not at all, but that's not a god. A god would have to be more than that. An entity beyond our comprehension could simply be some weird life form that's no more important to the universe than humans are.

A strong atheist would believe that God does not exist.

 

[jtartar]

"Is there or is there not a god?"

Someone please explain to me why the answer to that question matters.

Is there any real demonstrable negative to not acknowledging god (hint: stories of hell and eternal damnation are not demonstrable)?

I can be kind, loving, selfless, and charitable all on my own. It is simply a matter of choosing to act out such characteristics. I can enjoy my membership in social organizations without having to imbibe any religious teachings.

What are the negative consequences to atheism? I just don't see a downside.[/
quote]

Cobblestones,
Your question should be is there any upside to atheism. There is nothing but downside to atheism. WHY???
In the first place what future do you or your loved ones have??? Now I do not expect anyone to believe just for believing's sake, and neither does God.
There is the Cosmological Argument, or Proof. This means that anyone who reasons on the creation can see God in the Magnificent things created, the things that men make inferior copies of, and think they are great. Men design copies and then they are so ignorant as to believe that the much greated design they copied had no designer.
THINK, if you found a well made, expensive watch lying in the woods, would you believe that it just happened there and had no maker??? Well, everthing in God's creation is ten thousand times more complex that any watch that man can design.
It does not take faith to believe in a creator, in fact it takes much more faith to believe in evolution, because there is absolutely no proof that it is occurring now or ever in the past. Consider what God had recorded, Rom 1:18-20.
One of the very best ways to have trust and belief that there is a God is to study the Bible. In the Bible are many, many Prophecies, in fact around one third of the Bible is Prophecy. ALL these prophecies have either come true exactly as written or are in the process of being fulfilled NOW. There is no man that can predict accurrately what will occur tomorrow, and surely not thousands of years into the future. A perusal of the scriptures show that God has prophesied many short range and longe range prophecies. Every one has come true and exactly on time. Some prophecies are so accurrate that some Bible critics have tried to make people believe that the prophies were writtn afterword, because that were so precise.
Think about the information that is written in the Bible that NO MAN on earth knew at the time of the writing. In the forteenth century before Jesus, Moses wrote that the earth was round, Job 26:10, that it was hanging on nothing, Job 26:7. Isa 40:22 was written in the seventh century before Christ. Who could have possibly told these writer, if not God??
At the time that Jesus came to earth in the first century, the people had read the prophecy about the coming of the Messiah, at Dan 9:24-27. They were waiting for the Messiah to appear, that is why they thought John the Baptizer was Jesus, Luke 3:15.
If you read the Bible and test out the what is written you will see that only God could have had it written, by forty men, over a period of 1,600 years, and be in complete harmony.
Why does this matter??? Because, God has appointed a man, Jesus Christ to judge the earth, Acts 17:30,31. God has given ONE name by which ALL men MUST be saved, Acts 4:12. Jesus provided a Corresponding Ransom for us, so that we have the opportunity to live forever on a paradise earth, 1Tim 2:4-6, John 3:16.
NO atheist comes under the protection of the Ransom that Jesus gave for all mankind that has faith in him, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:38,39, 2Thess 1:6-9.
The Bible tells us that God has been patient, because He does not want to destroy anyone, BUT the time is very short, 2Pet 3:9,10,15. The very reason we are seeing so much trouble on earth today, is the fact that Jesus pointed out to his disciples that this would be the SIGN that he would arrive shortly, Rev 12:9,10,12.
Time is very fast running out for this system, Rev 21:1-5.

 

[Frank Merton]

"Is there or is there not a god?"

Someone please explain to me why the answer to that question matters.

Is there any real demonstrable negative to not acknowledging god (hint: stories of hell and eternal damnation are not demonstrable)?

You have no one to thank for your existence and the good things of life.

I can be kind, loving, selfless, and charitable all on my own. It is simply a matter of choosing to act out such characteristics. I can enjoy my membership in social organizations without having to imbibe any religious teachings.

Are you sure of this? You may think you can be a good person (and no doubt you are), but maybe religion would make you a better person. There is also the element of other people, who may not be as inherently good as you are and who need religion to help them.

What are the negative consequences to atheism? I just don't see a downside.

This strikes me as a neat reversal of Pascal's Wager. Regardless of that, what matters is what is true, not what is in or not in our interest.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Uh, yes...I trust you are aware that we all know this....
Was there a point you wished to make?

Only that lack of belief in God implies lack of belief in God coming down from the sky to make everything okay.

IOW, atheism - even weak atheism - implies that if we want to make sure that stuff gets done, we'd better start doing it ourselves.

And I do realize that this is (or should be) obvious, but you seemed to have trouble with it before.

 

[Frank Merton]

An entity beyond our comprehension? Not at all, but that's not a god. A god would have to be more than that. An entity beyond our comprehension could simply be some weird life form that's no more important to the universe than humans are.

A strong atheist would believe that God does not exist.

This is the big problem with getting those who call themselves agnostics to understand strong atheism. The strong atheist does not deny that beings may exist "out there" that are vastly beyond us, but such beings would not be God.

Similarly, miracle working deities are not God. They are just advanced technology.

To be "God" requires omnipotence, and this leads to self-referential logical contradictions -- and this is the basis of strong atheism -- the rejection of the existence of such transcendent, omnipotent, etc., beings, on the basis of logical contradiction.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is the big problem with getting those who call themselves agnostics to understand strong atheism. The strong atheist does not deny that beings may exist "out there" that are vastly beyond us, but such beings would not be God.

Similarly, miracle working deities are not God. They are just advanced technology.

To be "God" requires omnipotence, and this leads to self-referential logical contradictions -- and this is the basis of strong atheism -- the rejection of the existence of such transcendent, omnipotent, etc., beings, on the basis of logical contradiction.

That seems like a strangely monotheistic atheism you've got there.

 

[Frank Merton]

That seems like a strangely monotheistic atheism you've got there.

If there were more than one omniscient being, each would by definition instantly know all the thoughts , etc., of all the others. Is that one being or many?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

i'm jumping in late, my apologies if i repeat what anyone else has said.

Cobblestones,
Your question should be is there any upside to atheism. There is nothing but downside to atheism. WHY???
In the first place what future do you or your loved ones have???

the same future your loved ones have, the one we create for them. the only thing my loved ones are missing (according to me, not to many of them) is the delusion that there will be reward/punishment after the physical life. and it seems as though it's the belief that this is so that renders effect, rather than it actually happening.

Now I do not expect anyone to believe just for believing's sake, and neither does God.

i got the impression from that last sentence that you want people to believe based on fear for their loved ones afterlife...

THINK, if you found a well made, expensive watch lying in the woods, would you believe that it just happened there and had no maker??? Well, everthing in God's creation is ten thousand times more complex that any watch that man can design.

if you're going to use someone else's idea, please give them credit. just because it's not a good idea, or a truly relevant idea, does not mean that you should plagiarize it.

It does not take faith to believe in a creator, in fact it takes much more faith to believe in evolution, because there is absolutely no proof that it is occurring now or ever in the past.

what have you read on the theory of evolution through natural selection?

One of the very best ways to have trust and belief that there is a God is to study the Bible. In the Bible are many, many Prophecies, in fact around one third of the Bible is Prophecy. ALL these prophecies have either come true exactly as written or are in the process of being fulfilled NOW.

could you provide a few examples of prophecies that have come true in recent verifiable history. and sources as to their confirmed fulfillment. (and please dont use the new testament as your source for fulfilled prophecies, since i'm sure you can see how that would be cheating.)

Why does this matter??? Because, God has appointed a man, Jesus Christ to judge the earth, Acts 17:30,31. God has given ONE name by which ALL men MUST be saved, Acts 4:12. Jesus provided a Corresponding Ransom for us, so that we have the opportunity to live forever on a paradise earth,

i must have missed something, what does anyone needs "saving" from?

The very reason we are seeing so much trouble on earth today, is the fact that Jesus pointed out to his disciples that this would be the SIGN that he would arrive shortly, Rev 12:9,10,12.
Time is very fast running out for this system, Rev 21:1-5.

when, do you recall, that there was less "trouble on earth"?

you mentioned that you didn't think there were any upsides to atheism. well the biggest upside is not having a worldview so riddled with holes that the logical reasoning just spills out of it onto the ground. (and having the freedom to recognize those holes and move forward when information presents itself, rather than holding on for fear of eternal reprisal.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If there were more than one omniscient being, each would by definition instantly know all the thoughts , etc., of all the others. Is that one being or many?

You just told me that it's not one being... right in your first line when you said "more than one".

But do you think that omniscience is a necessary property of a god? The Pagans would probably say "no", while the Christians might say "yes". Why side with the Christians? That's what I was getting at with my "monotheistic atheism" comment; it seems you've assumed a monotheistic god to be atheist about while dismissing all the other god-concepts as not really gods.

 

[Frank Merton]

You just told me that it's not one being... right in your first line when you said "more than one".

Sometimes I go over people's heads and they don't understand. I guess this is one of those cases. All I can say is think about it and maybe you will see the point.

But do you think that omniscience is a necessary property of a god?

This tries my patience; I already addressed that point. Again, think about it; maybe you will get it, but then, again, in Dr. Whatmough's words, "maybe you won't." (That's what he use to say to me, and sometimes I got it and sometimes I didn't. Philosophical questions are like that).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sometimes I go over people's heads and they don't understand. I guess this is one of those cases. All I can say is think about it and maybe you will see the point.

I make a distinction between "functionally equivalent to one god" and "actually one god", so I suppose I don't see your point, no.

Presumably, a god who's all-knowing, while he would even know that other god's thoughts, he would also know that those thoughts aren't his.

And I guess you didn't get my point: if a line of reasoning arrives at a conclusion that violates its initial premises, then there's a flaw somewhere.

This tries my patience; I already addressed that point.

You did? In which post?

Edit: I saw post #751, where you made your pronouncement decreeing what sorts of things are and aren't gods, but it was a little bit short on explanation for why you decided the way you did.

 

[Frank Merton]

I make a distinction between "functionally equivalent to one god" and "actually one god", so I suppose I don't see your point, no.

They are one god and many gods; as many as it (they) want to be. They remain only one functioning entity.

Presumably, a god who's all-knowing, while he would even know that other god's thoughts, he would also know that those thoughts aren't his.

This line is infinite regress. A bunch of mirrors lined up that reflect perfectly and without loss. It is making these gods something physical; mind is what is thought, not what does the thinking.

And I guess you didn't get my point: if a line of reasoning arrives at a conclusion that violates its initial premises, then there's a flaw somewhere.

That is obvious enough: in this case the flaw is in the premises.

You did? In which post?

Edit: I saw post #751, where you made your pronouncement decreeing what sorts of things are and aren't gods, but it was a little bit short on explanation for why you decided the way you did.[/QUOTE]199

 

[andys]

What I was trying to get at is do you believe there could be an entity responsible for the creation of the universe.

That's the same question all over again. I answered it by pointing out that one is compelled, by rules of reason, not to deny the possible existence of unknown "entities". So in plain English, yes, I acknowledge the possibility of a creator (or a tooth fairy) but I have no reason whatsoever to think that either of these characters exists - and neither do you. So why does this futile question even arise?

"... I do not entertain the thought of whether or not a tooth fairy, or any of the sorts exists, because there is absolutely no reason why they should. I do however entertain the possibility of a creator, simply because of the undeniable existence of the universe.

The existence of a speck of dust, never mind a universe, does not in any way, shape or fashion, entail the existence of a creator, much less a supernatural being.

But here is what drives me crazy. Even if the universe did entail a creator (as opposed to a creation) what on Earth would lead your mind to leap over mountains of unrequited conjecture only to assign personality traits to the unknown entity? It is pure insanity, don't you see that?

Wouldn't you rather join me in looking for fascinating answers that can be found? It's so much more satisfying and rewarding! Evolution, for example, is such a marvel; it makes me dizzy with delight to imagine the intricate "miracles" that have transpired over millions and millions of years. The most amazing product of evolution, to me, is the brain's capacity for awareness of self and our environment. Combined with the power of reason, a human being is the "god" that eludes you. Our intelligence, compassion, moral conviction, creativity, imagination, curiosity, emotions, wisdom, love, and much more, is what makes us equal to any god you hope to meet. Hence the truth in the old saying, "Man is not made in god's image; god is not made in Man's image."

You wanted to know what I believe, well that's it in a nutshell.

I think this accounts for my hot temper when debating with believers. They have all the answers right under their noses but they look beyond, into an abyss of nonsense, for answers to their nonsense questions. Meanwhile, they're missing the splendid show of fireworks called reality.

You want gods? Here we are. You want miracles? They're right in front of you.

 

[Alceste]

"Is there or is there not a god?"

Someone please explain to me why the answer to that question matters.

Is there any real demonstrable negative to not acknowledging god (hint: stories of hell and eternal damnation are not demonstrable)?

I can be kind, loving, selfless, and charitable all on my own. It is simply a matter of choosing to act out such characteristics. I can enjoy my membership in social organizations without having to imbibe any religious teachings.

What are the negative consequences to atheism? I just don't see a downside.[/
quote]

Cobblestones,
Your question should be is there any upside to atheism. There is nothing but downside to atheism. WHY???
In the first place what future do you or your loved ones have??? Now I do not expect anyone to believe just for believing's sake, and neither does God.
There is the Cosmological Argument, or Proof. This means that anyone who reasons on the creation can see God in the Magnificent things created, the things that men make inferior copies of, and think they are great. Men design copies and then they are so ignorant as to believe that the much greated design they copied had no designer.
THINK, if you found a well made, expensive watch lying in the woods, would you believe that it just happened there and had no maker??? Well, everthing in God's creation is ten thousand times more complex that any watch that man can design.
It does not take faith to believe in a creator, in fact it takes much more faith to believe in evolution, because there is absolutely no proof that it is occurring now or ever in the past. Consider what God had recorded, Rom 1:18-20.
One of the very best ways to have trust and belief that there is a God is to study the Bible. In the Bible are many, many Prophecies, in fact around one third of the Bible is Prophecy. ALL these prophecies have either come true exactly as written or are in the process of being fulfilled NOW. There is no man that can predict accurrately what will occur tomorrow, and surely not thousands of years into the future. A perusal of the scriptures show that God has prophesied many short range and longe range prophecies. Every one has come true and exactly on time. Some prophecies are so accurrate that some Bible critics have tried to make people believe that the prophies were writtn afterword, because that were so precise.
Think about the information that is written in the Bible that NO MAN on earth knew at the time of the writing. In the forteenth century before Jesus, Moses wrote that the earth was round, Job 26:10, that it was hanging on nothing, Job 26:7. Isa 40:22 was written in the seventh century before Christ. Who could have possibly told these writer, if not God??
At the time that Jesus came to earth in the first century, the people had read the prophecy about the coming of the Messiah, at Dan 9:24-27. They were waiting for the Messiah to appear, that is why they thought John the Baptizer was Jesus, Luke 3:15.
If you read the Bible and test out the what is written you will see that only God could have had it written, by forty men, over a period of 1,600 years, and be in complete harmony.
Why does this matter??? Because, God has appointed a man, Jesus Christ to judge the earth, Acts 17:30,31. God has given ONE name by which ALL men MUST be saved, Acts 4:12. Jesus provided a Corresponding Ransom for us, so that we have the opportunity to live forever on a paradise earth, 1Tim 2:4-6, John 3:16.
NO atheist comes under the protection of the Ransom that Jesus gave for all mankind that has faith in him, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:38,39, 2Thess 1:6-9.
The Bible tells us that God has been patient, because He does not want to destroy anyone, BUT the time is very short, 2Pet 3:9,10,15. The very reason we are seeing so much trouble on earth today, is the fact that Jesus pointed out to his disciples that this would be the SIGN that he would arrive shortly, Rev 12:9,10,12.
Time is very fast running out for this system, Rev 21:1-5.

This here illustrates up the most significant up side to atheism.