Any Pro-Gun Liberals?

[McBell]

The victim's family would feel pretty upset, I would imagine.

I would imagine so.
What does that have to do with the question I answered?

 

[Rough_ER]

You make it sound like we here are making them and just selling them to everyone like candy. A lot of the guns aren't even made in this country and a vast majority are smuggled in and sold on the streets here. Sure we can put stringent punishments and enact tough laws on the actual law abiding gun buyer or hunter but this does nothing for those who sell and buy outside the law. we can't punish them with these laws until they are caught. My friends talk about their guns and bows because they are law abiding hunters who take precautions in securing their weapons....They're not some street thug running around talking about how they gonna pop a cap in somebodies azzz because they stepped on his sneakers or looked at his girl...Crimes involving guns is EVERYWHERE....even in "Switzerland".....

I never said gun crime doesn't exist in other countries. It's illegal for most people to own guns in the United Kingdom but members of gangs still acquire them and use them on each other. Maybe I'm being obtuse, or seeing a connection where none exists, but the combination of "off the shelf" guns/ammunition and a population who (according to official statistics) love shooting each other, is not a great idea.

Of course, I've never heard a gunshot or even seen a gun in my life, so what do I know?

 

[Rough_ER]

Israeli rabbi shot in Switzerland - Europe, World - The Independent

Four years after renowned French financier Edouard Stern was found shot dead in his Geneva home, the trial of the woman accused of his killing has opened in the city. - swissinfo

Domestic killings shock Swiss (Gun laws questioned) - Democratic Underground

To name a few.....

When I said gun crime is not a problem, I meant it is in line with the gun crime rates of most other countries where guns are banned for the general population. You can always find a few cases, but the point is that the rates of gun crime are low in comparison to the USA (astonishingly low actually!)

Also... please read the last link you gave us. According to the post, the problem is as follows:

"Mr Boess blames the Swiss army's policy of requiring Swiss men, who all have to do military service, to keep their guns and ammunition at home in case of an emergency call-up. What that means is that nearly all Swiss men have a sturmgewehr - a sub-machine gun - stored somewhere in their homes."

Perhaps gun crime is more of a problem in Switzerland than I had previously realized, and this would seem a reasonable explanation.

 

[AlsoAnima]

I'm an anti gun control, anti-abortion liberal.

What makes me liberal?

Death Penalty and Homosexuality issues. :yes:

 

[DarkSun]

I would imagine so.
What does that have to do with the question I answered?

I was just saying that even if you didn't feel too bad, the people who the victim left behind would.

And making a mistake with a gun can't be undone.

 

[Father Heathen]

a population who (according to official statistics) love shooting each other

Yeah, we're just one big homogeneous demographic.

 

[JMorris]

Yeah, we're just one big homogeneous demographic.

correct. Americans dont love shooting each other. we just enjoy having that option available.

 

[Diederick]

I'm an anti gun control, anti-abortion liberal.
What makes me liberal?
Death Penalty and Homosexuality issues. :yes:

Liberal is a rather funny term. You are liberal as well as conservative - so what's the point in assuming either as a description of yourself?

 

[PureX]

Sure we can put stringent punishments and enact tough laws on the actual law abiding gun buyer or hunter but this does nothing for those who sell and buy outside the law. we can't punish them with these laws until they are caught. My friends talk about their guns and bows because they are law abiding hunters who take precautions in securing their weapons....They're not some street thug running around talking about how they gonna pop a cap in somebodies azzz because they stepped on his sneakers or looked at his girl...

But most of the gun deaths in the U.S. are not the result of criminals buying illegally imported guns and "popping caps" in innocent citizens. By far, most gun deaths are caused by supposedly innocent citizens with legally bought guns who got drunk, drugged up, in a fit of rage, or emotionally denied and in a moment of blind stupidity, decided the only way to solve their dispute with their neighbor, or friend, or family member was to shoot them. Because that's what they've seen all their life on the TV.

The argument that "taking guns away from innocent citizens" will make them more vulnerable to criminals is a 'red herring', in that it's these "innocent citizens" who are doing most of the killing. They are in fact killing each other. Just as for the most part, so are the "criminals" (gang members and the like).

Gun lovers have invented for themselves this "bad guy" who will always have an illegal weapon and who will break into their home and use his gun to cause all sorts of outrageous mayhem. But in reality this sort of crime is extremely rare. It almost never happens.

What happens instead is the gun lover or someone close to him gains access to the weapon in a moment of extreme irresponsibility and ends up shooting himself or someone he loves. The real "bad guy" isn't 'out there'. He's us. And thats why gun controls, and limits, will and do work for the nations that employ them.

 

[Rough_ER]

Yeah, we're just one big homogeneous demographic.

You know perfectly well I'm talking about the gun crime rate. Perhaps that was a provocative way of putting it, and I apologize if you took it as a generalisation.

For the record, my girlfriend is from Louisiana and when I visit her family I am always amazed at how many guns they have all over the place. They are perfectly nice people, and only have guns for hunting as they own a farm, but it still makes me quite uncomfortable to have them in the house. Maybe I'm just soft. =P

 

[Engyo]

For the record, my girlfriend is from Louisiana and when I visit her family I am always amazed at how many guns they have all over the place. They are perfectly nice people, and only have guns for hunting as they own a farm, but it still makes me quite uncomfortable to have them in the house. Maybe I'm just soft. =P

Hi, RE -

I would surmise that the guns make you uncomfortable because you have not familiarized yourself with them; i.e. you have never fired one and don't know how to be safe around them. Firearms are a tool like any others that people make for themselves. They can be put to various uses, good or bad depending on your viewpoint.

How many people die each year as a result of automobile mishaps? Many people who drive every day are scared of flying, but the chances of them being maimed or killed is far greater in a car than it is in a plane on any given day.

 

[Rough_ER]

Hi, RE -

I would surmise that the guns make you uncomfortable because you have not familiarized yourself with them; i.e. you have never fired one and don't know how to be safe around them. Firearms are a tool like any others that people make for themselves. They can be put to various uses, good or bad depending on your viewpoint.

How many people die each year as a result of automobile mishaps? Many people who drive every day are scared of flying, but the chances of them being maimed or killed is far greater in a car than it is in a plane on any given day.

This argument has always left me rather confused. Guns are designed for the purpose of killing or maiming, not for transportation. I really can't see what point you could be trying to make.

The facts are: the USA has a very high gun-ownership percentage, and an anomalously high rate of gun-related injury and death. If you're seriously suggesting that shootings are homologous to car crashes then I'm more confused than I was before! =P

It's like Purex said: lots of people invent this big bad criminal out there who is just waiting to come and shoot you in your sleep. The truth is that cases of this are extremely rare. More common are cases when someone is trying to burglarize a house and recieves a face full of lead for their trouble - a life lost instead of a television set. In my country, the criminals have guns and the general population don't. We have a gun-crime rate that looks quite silly compared to the USA, and you need to ask yourself if you honestly see no connection between a lack of guns in the general population, and a lack of shootings in the general population.

 

[Engyo]

Hi, RE -

Just trying to point out that there is really no objective difference between owning and operating an automobile or a firearm. Both can be used for peaceful and useful purposes (firearms especially in a farming or rural situation like your inlaws enjoy), but both are enormously powerful and can cause death and destruction when mishandled.

I don't own a gun at this time (no current need for one) but I am not afraid of them nor do I feel that they are evil or dangerous, in and of themselves. What is dangerous are the people who misuse them, just like people who cause automobile accidents.

 

[Rough_ER]

Hi, RE -

Just trying to point out that there is really no objective difference between owning and operating an automobile or a firearm. Both can be used for peaceful and useful purposes (firearms especially in a farming or rural situation like your inlaws enjoy), but both are enormously powerful and can cause death and destruction when mishandled.

I don't own a gun at this time (no current need for one) but I am not afraid of them nor do I feel that they are evil or dangerous, in and of themselves. What is dangerous are the people who misuse them, just like people who cause automobile accidents.

You can't be serious... I don't mean to be rude but this is a pretty casualistic attempt. If you find someone in your house trying to get out of the window with your television set, you're going to reach for your gun, not your car. Guns are made to kill, cars are not. If this distinction is irrelevant to you then I don't know how I can contribute anything else to this discussion.

If you honestly think that lots of people owning guns does NOT contribute to the enormous rate of killing in the States, then I guess we're just not going to agree.

 

[Engyo]

If you honestly think that lots of people owning guns does NOT contribute to the enormous rate of killing in the States, then I guess we're just not going to agree.

Hi again, RE -

You aren't paying attention to what I wrote. You are extrapolating two or three statements down the chain of argument and then trying to refute that, which has nothing to do with what I am saying.

I do agree that a high rate of gun ownership leads to a higher rate of death by guns. DON'T BLAME THE GUNS. Blame the people who fire them! There is no difference between that and the rate of deaths by automobile accident. Look at the rising rates of death by automobile in China - it coincides with the rate of automobile ownership. Better ban those cars now!

 

[Rough_ER]

I do agree that a high rate of gun ownership leads to a higher rate of death by guns. DON'T BLAME THE GUNS. Blame the people who fire them! There is no difference between that and the rate of deaths by automobile accident. Look at the rising rates of death by automobile in China - it coincides with the rate of automobile ownership. Better ban those cars now!

I never said I blame the guns themselves. The problem is that there is a culture in some parts of American society that has an unhealthy view of guns and how they should be treated. Banning cars would obviously be a silly idea, seeing as we use them for transportation everyday and the economy would grind to even more of a standstill without them. However, with the problems in some parts of American society, I see the availability of guns as an escalating influence.

Just out of interest: don't you think that the low levels of gun violence in Europe is reason enough for giving gun control a go?

 

[Engyo]

Hi again, RE -

I can certainly support different ways to approach gun ownership in the US - rendering it much more about education and responsibility than is currently the case.

I was attempting to point out that restricting the availability of a device that can cause injury or death if mishandled is something that we don't apply evenly across the board, no matter which country you wish to examine. Bangladesh has a very low rate of death by automobile - shouldn't we then reduce car ownership levels to promote public safety?

The logical root of what you are proposing is that as a society you do not trust individual members of that society to behave in a responsible fashion, so they must not be allowed to have dangerous devices. In addition, you are applying that restriction to one particular class of dangerous devices, while ignoring other classes of dangerous devices. Does this make sense? That is for each society to decide for themselves, in my personal opinion.

 

[Rough_ER]

Hi again, RE -

I can certainly support different ways to approach gun ownership in the US - rendering it much more about education and responsibility than is currently the case.

I was attempting to point out that restricting the availability of a device that can cause injury or death if mishandled is something that we don't apply evenly across the board, no matter which country you wish to examine. Bangladesh has a very low rate of death by automobile - shouldn't we then reduce car ownership levels to promote public safety?

The logical root of what you are proposing is that as a society you do not trust individual members of that society to behave in a responsible fashion, so they must not be allowed to have dangerous devices. In addition, you are applying that restriction to one particular class of dangerous devices, while ignoring other classes of dangerous devices. Does this make sense? That is for each society to decide for themselves, in my personal opinion.

What is a gun for? Why does someone who is not a farmer want to own a gun? When it is used to kill someone, or maim them, whether in self-defence or not, how is this misuse? What is the gun there for if not to hurt someone?

When a car is used to hurt someone, this is misuse. When a carving knife is used to hurt someone, this is misuse. When a 9mm is used to kill someone, it is NOT misuse.

I do agree with you completely with respect to education though. People need to be brought up and educated so that they don't want to keep a gun in their house, and so they aren't paranoid about the imaginary bogey man who's waiting to come and fill them with bullets.

 

[JMorris]

I was attempting to point out that restricting the availability of a device that can cause injury or death if mishandled is something that we don't apply evenly across the board, no matter which country you wish to examine. Bangladesh has a very low rate of death by automobile - shouldn't we then reduce car ownership levels to promote public safety?

"If mishandled" hmmm..... a car is built for the purpose of transportation. so when a person has a accident, and someone is killed, then yes, the car was mishandled.

a handgun, an assault rifle, a submachine gun. what are these made for? killing people. if a person is shot, and even if it was an accident, the gun wasn't mishandled, it was fulfilling the purpose for which it was built.

The logical root of what you are proposing is that as a society you do not trust individual members of that society to behave in a responsible fashion, so they must not be allowed to have dangerous devices. In addition, you are applying that restriction to one particular class of dangerous devices, while ignoring other classes of dangerous devices. Does this make sense? That is for each society to decide for themselves, in my personal opinion.

the difference is, a gun is meant to kill a person, a car is not. "responsible" members of that society might be responsible today, but they might not tomorrow. how many times have i heard a person say on the news "we never expected this from him, he was such an respected member of the community".

the purpose of the device matters. why not legalize grenades? fully armed tanks? atomic bombs? its not the bomb's fault its went off after all.

i dont find people, no matter how responsible they may seem, trustworthy enough to handle man killing devices.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am pro-gun. I do not actually own any guns, but the Constitution states that "the right to bear arms by the people shall not be infringed." And in the end, people kill people. Guns, much like knifes, swords, plastic bags, pillows, and poisons, are just tools used to carry out a crime. I do however believe there needs to be more and better gun safety classes, and anyone who wishes to buy a gun, for any purpose, must take said classes, and any kids that gun owners have should also have to go through gun saftey courses.