paarsurrey
Veteran Member
How could the JWs claim the only "true", please? Isn't it an insult to LDS, Bahaism and Atheism, please, born almost in the same period. Right friend, please?
Regards
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Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"Sinner, Sinners"
It is a core belief of Pauline-Christianity, I figure, to sin or to be sinner or to be one of the sinners. Right friend, please?
By default, I figure, they love this word/s ^, but lately our JW friends, as I guess, have started disliking it when I put the word sinful, a derivative of Sinner, as a prefix to Paul or to Church or to scribes. Right friend, please?
Perhaps they have started doubting that Jesus died on the Cross for the Atonement of their sins, which the Pauline-Christianity cannot stop, perhaps. Right friend, please?
Kindly correct me if I am wrong, anybody including JWs and the LDS, if they don't mind it, please.
Regards
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because they believe all other groups slipped into apostacy. Problem is that this defies what's actually in the Gospels.
You forgot to mention Ahmadiyya, also born in the same time period lol
How about the dictionary definition then?
"Convert"....
"change the form, character, or function of something......change one's religious faith or other belief."
Clear enough? It means to change our thinking, especially with regard to something that is important to us, like our faith.
You sound defensive.....did someone tell you that you lacked intelligence at some point in your life?
Intelligence is not a requirement for discipleship.....obedience is. Is that difficult to understand?
It has nothing to do with being "smart" (whatever that means to you.)
The truth is the truth whether you are "smart" or not....it makes no difference.
No one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44, 65) and yet there will be "many" who will offer Jesus their excuses on judgment day as to why they failed to do the will of his Father and "yet he will confess to them, I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)
I have no idea where this notion comes from...certainly not from scripture. "Grace" is not a license to sin. Forgiveness is conditional...or were you never taught that? In order for your sins to be forgiven, you need to stop sinning.....that is not hard to understand, is it?
1 John 3:4...
"Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
Can you see that the "practice" of sin (or continuing to practice sin) is not what "grace" will cover. To be "repentant" was a requirement before forgiveness was possible. If you are genuinely sorry for what you have done, then that repentance will move you to hate what you did, and never want to repeat it. Does it mean that you will never sin again? NO! But unless you hate the sin, you will repeat it and will therefore NOT receive God's grace. It is pure disobedience to repeat a sin or to continue to do things knowing that God hates them.
2 Peter 2:20-22...
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
Do you understand what Peter is saying here? If you learned the truth from Jesus' teachings and you accepted him as your "Savior", but then you deliberately ignored those teachings in order to continue on in your sinful ways, you were never "saved" in the first place.
Jesus did not come to save the unrepentant.....he came to save those sinners who repent. If you know better and you keep sinning because you want an excuse to keep doing what you enjoy, then you are in a fool's paradise. To repeat a sin is tantamount to a 'dog returning to its vomit or a bathed pig going back to roll in the mud'. Willful and deliberate sin is not covered by "grace" at all. Don't you see...if you were not repentant, then you never had the "bath".
No one avoids "hell". We all go to "hell" because it is simply the common grave of all mankind. "Hell" is an invention of the Catholic church.....to scare the pants off those whom they kept in ignorance for centuries, so as to control them.....to Jews "sheol" (Greek hades) was where the dead rest with no consciousness of anything going on in the world. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10) Sheol/hades is a place where the dead "sleep" not somewhere that involves conscious torture. Jesus said that his friend Lazarus was "sleeping", when in fact he had died. (John 11:11-14) Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him up?
Revelation 20:13-15...says concerning the resurrection of the dead...
"And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."
The lake of fire is not literal or else how could death and hades be thrown in there? It is called "the second death" because it means permanent death....no one can be resurrected from this death. Everlasting death is contrasted with everlasting life
"Life or death" was put before God's ancient people...not "heaven or hell". (Deuteronomy 30:19)
When Jesus brings the dead back to life, both the righteous and the unrighteous are called out of their tombs...they come out of them because that is where they have "slept" since they died. (John 5:28-29)
Not all who are Christians will go to heaven because that was never God's purpose for the human race.
Go back to Genesis and see why God gave us a material existence and put us on this planet....can you tell me why we are here....? Is death ever mentioned in the creation account except as a penalty for disobedience.
Who taught you that what you believe is true?
You can believe them, but what if they are dead wrong? What did Jesus say about the religious leaders of his day?
Matthew 23:13...
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in."
....these are the ones that the Jewish people believed and why they sanctioned the execution of Jesus Christ.
They were so sure that they were right about Jesus that they even cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)
God's word cannot be full of errors.....what is in error is man's interpretation of what they think God's word says.
"Hell" is a classic example"...."once saved always saved" is another. So is the concept of "heaven and hell as opposite destinations"....These concepts are grossly misinterpreted. None exist in scripture.
That is not what that scripture says though....
"This is what the Lord says:
“Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it;
Then you will find a resting place for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (NASB)
God was telling his people to walk in the ways of the ancients...IOW, to do what he told his people at the outset, recorded by Moses and to conform to His ways.....to "look for the good way and walk in it"....but they defiantly refused to walk in the way of the ancients, preferring instead to walk in their own way. Thus was the history of Israel.....they failed to obey their God and forced him to discipline them, time and again. Jesus foretold that the same would happen among his own disciples. (Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2:1-3)
There is so much that you have never been taught and it grieves me to no end that Christendom has ensnared people with lies that persist to this day. Christendom's clergy have fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees in Jesus day, and are just as reprehensible.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Not all of them, Ahmadiyya is also an alternative to Jehovah's Witnesses right please?
Love God
Member
How about the dictionary definition then?
"Convert"....
"change the form, character, or function of something......change one's religious faith or other belief."
Clear enough? It means to change our thinking, especially with regard to something that is important to us, like our faith.
You sound defensive.....did someone tell you that you lacked intelligence at some point in your life?
Intelligence is not a requirement for discipleship.....obedience is. Is that difficult to understand?
It has nothing to do with being "smart" (whatever that means to you.)
The truth is the truth whether you are "smart" or not....it makes no difference.
No one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44, 65) and yet there will be "many" who will offer Jesus their excuses on judgment day as to why they failed to do the will of his Father and "yet he will confess to them, I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)
I have no idea where this notion comes from...certainly not from scripture. "Grace" is not a license to sin. Forgiveness is conditional...or were you never taught that? In order for your sins to be forgiven, you need to stop sinning.....that is not hard to understand, is it?
1 John 3:4...
"Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
Can you see that the "practice" of sin (or continuing to practice sin) is not what "grace" will cover. To be "repentant" was a requirement before forgiveness was possible. If you are genuinely sorry for what you have done, then that repentance will move you to hate what you did, and never want to repeat it. Does it mean that you will never sin again? NO! But unless you hate the sin, you will repeat it and will therefore NOT receive God's grace. It is pure disobedience to repeat a sin or to continue to do things knowing that God hates them.
2 Peter 2:20-22...
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
Do you understand what Peter is saying here? If you learned the truth from Jesus' teachings and you accepted him as your "Savior", but then you deliberately ignored those teachings in order to continue on in your sinful ways, you were never "saved" in the first place.
Jesus did not come to save the unrepentant.....he came to save those sinners who repent. If you know better and you keep sinning because you want an excuse to keep doing what you enjoy, then you are in a fool's paradise. To repeat a sin is tantamount to a 'dog returning to its vomit or a bathed pig going back to roll in the mud'. Willful and deliberate sin is not covered by "grace" at all. Don't you see...if you were not repentant, then you never had the "bath".
No one avoids "hell". We all go to "hell" because it is simply the common grave of all mankind. "Hell" is an invention of the Catholic church.....to scare the pants off those whom they kept in ignorance for centuries, so as to control them.....to Jews "sheol" (Greek hades) was where the dead rest with no consciousness of anything going on in the world. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10) Sheol/hades is a place where the dead "sleep" not somewhere that involves conscious torture. Jesus said that his friend Lazarus was "sleeping", when in fact he had died. (John 11:11-14) Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him up?
Revelation 20:13-15...says concerning the resurrection of the dead...
"And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."
The lake of fire is not literal or else how could death and hades be thrown in there? It is called "the second death" because it means permanent death....no one can be resurrected from this death. Everlasting death is contrasted with everlasting life
"Life or death" was put before God's ancient people...not "heaven or hell". (Deuteronomy 30:19)
When Jesus brings the dead back to life, both the righteous and the unrighteous are called out of their tombs...they come out of them because that is where they have "slept" since they died. (John 5:28-29)
Not all who are Christians will go to heaven because that was never God's purpose for the human race.
Go back to Genesis and see why God gave us a material existence and put us on this planet....can you tell me why we are here....? Is death ever mentioned in the creation account except as a penalty for disobedience.
Who taught you that what you believe is true?
What did Jesus say about the religious leaders of his day?
Matthew 23:13...
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in."
....these are the ones that the Jewish people believed and why they sanctioned the execution of Jesus Christ.
They were so sure that they were right about Jesus that they even cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)
God's word cannot be full of errors.....what is in error is man's interpretation of what they think God's word says.
"Hell" is a classic example"...."once saved always saved" is another. So is the concept of "heaven and hell as opposite destinations"....These concepts are grossly misinterpreted. None exist in scripture.
That is not what that scripture says though....
"This is what the Lord says:
“Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it;
Then you will find a resting place for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (NASB)
God was telling his people to walk in the ways of the ancients...IOW, to do what he told his people at the outset, recorded by Moses and to conform to His ways.....to "look for the good way and walk in it"....but they defiantly refused to walk in the way of the ancients, preferring instead to walk in their own way. Thus was the history of Israel.....they failed to obey their God and forced him to discipline them, time and again. Jesus foretold that the same would happen among his own disciples. (Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2:1-3)
There is so much that you have never been taught and it grieves me to no end that Christendom has ensnared people with lies that persist to this day. Christendom's clergy have fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees in Jesus day, and are just as reprehensible.
convert:
To turn.
In it’s simplest definition.
(As in: To turn from sin and turn to God.)
I cannot speak ‘scripture’ to you since we have different scriptures.
Your scripture is different than the scripture I study.
And then add the fact that you run to the Greek to correct any scripture that you find too simple, or offensive, or confusing...
“For God is not the author of confusion,
but of peace,
as in all churches of the saints.”
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV
you have insinuated that I am stupid for believing the KJV is the only scripture that is 100% spot on. And for believing Jesus saves completely....
My understanding is that of someone who, for the majority of my life, was told what the bible meant, (if indeed there was an actual bible to say anything).
from my cultish upbringing, my cult always stated that the bible was ‘messed with’ by man but, still, they alone could make sense of it! They alone have the truth.
When one day I decided to read the bible to see what all the fuss is about. How my religion was right and all the others were wrong (according to their teachings that I was taught). How my religion knew that.
so you could say I am ‘self taught’. Not respected or recognized by any reputable scholarly institution... and to make matters worse, I read the bible (a KJV one to boot!) without the guidance of my religion!
Big no-no. Big big no-no...
interesting thing about God. He speaks to anyone willing. Doesn’t matter race, creed, language, sex, education level,...
I can say this: I became obsessed with the bible.
My cult claims that they alone have the truth. But I could not find their truth claims in that book.
I was convinced that the problem was me. (Irony alert, the problem was me... for not double, triple, quadruple checking for myself to see if what was being taught was in there...)
What you show to be the ‘right’ interpretation of your scripture is full of irony, as well.
if something upsets a person, they usually try and ‘re-write’ the narrative.
How many innocent people are in jail! They all have reasons why they are innocent. Every one of them.
if only someone would look at it from their ‘perspective’...
so does God tell the truth? Pure, unadulterated, absolute truth?
Joy
“God is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it?
or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
Numbers 23:19 KJV
plenty of thought-provoking questions in that ol’ archaic verse...
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Love God
Member
it would be more helpful to understand your beliefs?
what your background and upbringing included? Our experiences tend to shape our beliefs.
for me, it is always interesting to understand how one came to believe what they believe and how they prove it?
After all, isn’t it always about truth and if absolute truth exists?
what say you?
Joy
“King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
And Paul said,
I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am,
except these bonds.”
Acts 26:27-29 KJV
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because our approach today is very different than theirs. If a person is well established in their own religion, we think it's unethical to encourage them to change to ours.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
If one wants to know about my religion, I am Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslim.
I have read Bible, both OT and NT. I am sure, I figure, that Pauline-Christianity has got nothing to do with Jesus.
Regards
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I find at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that we are informed that an apostasy would begin after the death of the Apostles.
Jesus' illustration about genuine ' wheat ' Christians and fake ' weed/tares ' imitation Christians would grow together over the centuries.
Christendom is: so-called Christian but mostly in name only - Matthew 7:21-23.
Christendom follows church customs, church traditions teaching them as being Scripture but Not really found in Scripture.
The figurative wheat and the weeds grow together until the Harvest Time.- Matthew 13:24-30.
The Harvest Time, or the soon coming Time of Separation on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37
Differentiate by Jesus' words such as found at Matthew 7:16-20 by their fruits ( behavior )
Differentiate by Jesus' words to do the spiritual work as directed at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
Differentiate by Jesus' words found at John 13:34-35
Genuine Christians would have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
Why else would a person belong to a religion unless they believed (have faith/confidence) that they are in the right one ______________
True, we are saved by God's undeserved grace, but Jesus I find teaches us at what point we are ' saved ' as per Matthew 24:13.
We must endure to the end in order to be saved.
Even at 1 Corinthians 10:12 we are cautioned to take heed lest we should fall ( so one could fall away or loose out on salvation)
I would think any dictionary could give us the definition meaning of ' convert '.
If you really want a comprehensive answer to the ^ above ^ then to me it is best to research at www.jw.org
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
If one has seen some specific good point there, I am ears to one, please. Right?
Is one a JW, please? If yes, kindly come openly, please. We are friends, I am not against JWs I see Pauline-Christianity a man-made by (sinful) Paul, and JWs, LDS, Bahaism (as also Catholicism and or Protestantism) follow his doctrine that " Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" and this creed is Anti-Christ-Jesus, as I understand, please. Right?
Regards
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Well, I find Jesus was executed by his enemies by using trumped-up charges of: sedition, treason, and injured majesty.
Paul was especially chosen by resurrected Jesus to be an apostle to the nations for us - Acts of the Apostles 9:15
ALL Scripture ( the whole Bible ) is inspired by God according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
Acts of the Apostles 10:39 says Jesus was hanged on a tree ( Not a literal tree, but an upright pole or stake)
Please read Galatians 3:10-13
Jesus took it upon himself the ' curse' that resulted from those being under the Mosaic Law - Deuteronomy 21:23.
So, Jesus being executed as a criminal because of the corrupted Jewish high court being Anti-Christ Jesus in that sense became a curse.
In Heaven then that old Law was cancelled by his God - Hebrews 9:24.
Thus, removing that old Mosaic Law - Colossians 2:14
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Simply because, as the old adage says, "If two people completely agree, then only one of them is doing the thinking".
IOW, any serious objective research will have a person agreeing with some religious teachings but not some others coming from a single source. The alternative is what's called "blind faith", whereas the person simply believes everything they're being told without doing any research or thinking on their own.
Love God
Member
so please forgive me my ignorance...
Does the Ahmadiyya ignore this (and jihad in general?):
191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.
the Quran seems to be clear that any who do not believe in Allah deserves to be put to death by the believers in Allah?
also, please tell me, in your opinion, which translation of the Quran is the correct version for an English speaking person?
I have had the pleasure of speaking to followers of Mohammed and have found that they have the same problem that many Christians have when it comes to the ‘correct version’?
Also, have heard the same exact saying from Mohammedans that one can only truly understand Allah and Mohammed’s writings in ‘the original tongue’ (language)? Do you subscribe to that teaching?
if God, or Allah in your case, can only be known in some ‘original tongue’, who knows what that original tongue is?
do all Arabs speak the original tongue?
and yes, I understand the argument regarding Paul.
In the bible, Paul wrote of a ‘new’ doctrine. That was revealed to him.
According to the writings of the other apostles, they also came to the understanding and agreement of the ‘new’ doctrine as good and right.
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;”
Ephesians 2:12-14 KJV
See how all are called to be in Christ Jesus in Paul’s writings (the Jewish messiah according to the bible)?
And how Jesus came to save all, not just a specific group?
And how Paul made that doctrine known; that salvation through Jesus Christ is for the whole world according to the bible and how it is not just for one race/group/nation?
IMO, Christianity is all inclusive. Christianity will accept anyone that is willing. A choice as it were. For all and any according to its teachings:
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13 KJV
The most basic Christian teaching is that ‘all have sinned’, and need ‘saved’, and Jesus is that only Saviour; according to the scripture (and not just Paul’s writings state that).
Isn’t ‘salvation’ found in most all of the bible’s books, Old and New Testament?
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
John 3:17 KJV
(John writing about Jesus during his ministry while still alive, before he died for sin... does this make the writing Pauline?)
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:1-2 KJV
(Written after Jesus died for the sins of the world... again, is John not to be heard because he is teaching Pauline doctrine?)
And here is beloved Peter speaking of Paul:
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction.”
2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
(Beloved Peter is in unison with Paul and understands that what Paul has written seems different. And difficult.)
I have heard it stated that the epistles of Paul (Romans-Philemon) are expressly for the Christian.
So if someone is denying Paul’s writings, it would stand to reason that they are rejecting Christianity? As I understand Paul and his writings.
What say you?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
All peace and
Joy
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