any weapons on you?

[Apex]

Well, put it this way........... straw men, broad generalisations and ridiculous exaggerations can save lives, if they can help people in denial to see a new point of view.

Yours only work to show your ignorance as well as making you look ridiculous.

They might help to show the absurdity of allowing anybody, absolutely anybody, to be in possession of a folding lock-knife in a public place.

This just proves my point above.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's not what your President wanted, though. He wanted a more close control of guns..... isn't that true?

Tricky issue.....what he says he wants, & what he actually wants are 2 very different things.

Btw, when you use the phrase "your president" to refer to Obama....I die a little bit inside.

Anybody, absolutely anybody can own a shotgun in England, and anybody can join a rifle club and own a rifle. Those who shoot vermin for farmers can also own a rifle.
We are not 'all or nothing' here.

But you guys are pretty neutered compared to us in the firepower department.
Are you really not allowed to have lock-back folding knives?
Can you even carry pepper spray, or must you just toss curry powder at your assailants?

I haven't read an 'all or nothing' post on any RF gun thread. Shooting Legislation in the UK hurt me more than most, but I understood the need for it and moved with it.
The concept of adjusting 'Olden-days Laws and Rights' to modern day needs is 'common-sense' rather than 'complexity'.

Common sense is rather uncommon, especially when debating economics, abortion & gun rights.

True. But your laws hav
e changed massively since that Constitution was written. Massively. Hugely. People had the right to own slaves in some states when that was written.
It has been amended many times..... true?
By democracy it can be amended still...... true?

Slavery was properly banished by Constitutional amendment.
If anti-gun types want to repeal the 2nd Amendment, then they should
do so by legal means, rather than by presidential or congressional fiat.

 

[BSM1]

No weapons. I don't want to hurt anyone or anything....

"Let there be peace on earth - and let it begin with me."

Even if some crazy is obviously going to hurt you or a member of your family?

 

[Apex]

Anybody, absolutely anybody can own a shotgun in England

Really? Even after the Navy Yard shooter here in the US? After all, he used a simple pump shotgun (which seems to be legal in the UK). And still killed 12 people.

 

[CMike]

Really? Even after the Navy Yard shooter here in the US? After all, he used a simple pump shotgun (which seems to be legal in the UK). And still killed 12 people.

Actually a shotgun is perhaps the most powerful firearm there is.

 

[oldbadger]

Yours only work to show your ignorance as well as making you look ridiculous.

This just proves my point above.

You throw insults, but you have not yet written anything that amounts to a strong argument for such lax gun-controls.
Your criticisms of some American Universities' rules, (including your own at Purdue?), caused me to believe that you have no really strong grasp of what 'the common-sense of gun control' truly is.

Why don't you leave this debate to the members who can really make a strong case for easy-gun-access? There are several who can do it without the abuse.

 

[oldbadger]

Tricky issue.....what he says he wants, & what he actually wants are 2 very different things.

Btw, when you use the phrase "your president" to refer to Obama....I die a little bit inside.

Ok..... I only hear and read well edited reports, so I'll stand down on this one. No offence meant.

But you guys are pretty neutered compared to us in the firepower department.
Are you really not allowed to have lock-back folding knives?
Can you even carry pepper spray, or must you just toss curry powder at your assailants?

I had my vasectomy in 76'....
No we can't have any knife that locks, and we cannot have butterfly knives. We cannot have sword sticks..... we can have a 'pen-knife', with a 3" blade which is 'dull' in sharpness.
We cannot carry pepper or other sprays, and would probably get into trouble if we were found with a sachet of curry powder at the wrong time/place.

Common sense is rather uncommon, especially when debating economics, abortion & gun rights.

Good point. And so care and manners are needed by both sides in any sensitive discussion. Humour can be alright, but even that can cause rumpus. I've already written a few times that I would want my wife to train and have a firearm if we lived in some States. I'm not sure whether a foreigner could go and buy a gun, actually. Maybe you could tell me, although we won't be flying in any time soon.....

Slavery was properly banished by Constitutional amendment.
If anti-gun types want to repeal the 2nd Amendment, then they should
do so by legal means, rather than by presidential or congressional fiat.

Anti-gunners should not win......
Gun-controllers should have a say.
There's a massive difference.

 

[oldbadger]

Really? Even after the Navy Yard shooter here in the US? After all, he used a simple pump shotgun (which seems to be legal in the UK). And still killed 12 people.

I used to use a 'rattle-bang' (pump) in the 60's. It could throw 6 cartridges of 1-3/8oz AAA shot in a few seconds, much better than a punt-gun throwing 1 pound of shot, and more accurate. There was little point in having a punt-gun, just gun-punt, in my opinion.

But now rattle-bangs are restricted so that they can only fire three shots, two in the tube, one in the chamber. Further, the shot sizes have been reduced down.... I could get aboyt 60 yards range out of AAA, but now I probably would need a special licence for it.

And so we do sometimes have gun tragedies, yet we do have the opportunity to own guns. There's simply less of them around.

 

[Revoltingest]

No offence meant.

I know. Outsiders often don't know the dismay & disappointment many of
us feel at such a dim panderer being elected to the highest office in the land.
And we thought Bush was bad! Well, he was.

I had my vasectomy in 76'....
No we can't have any knife that locks, and we cannot have butterfly knives. We cannot have sword sticks..... we can have a 'pen-knife', with a 3" blade which is 'dull' in sharpness.
We cannot carry pepper or other sprays, and would probably get into trouble if we were found with a sachet of curry powder at the wrong time/place.

Sounds like you guys get a vasectomy at birth.
Hah! You knew I had to go there.

Good point. And so care and manners are needed by both sides in any sensitive discussion. Humour can be alright, but even that can cause rumpus. I've already written a few times that I would want my wife to train and have a firearm if we lived in some States. I'm not sure whether a foreigner could go and buy a gun, actually. Maybe you could tell me, although we won't be flying in any time soon.....

If you moved here, there'd be some immigrant-related restrictions I suppose, but
you could buy long guns, pepper spray, & lock-back knives to your heart's content.

 

[oldbadger]

I know. Outsiders often don't know the dismay & disappointment many of
us feel at such a dim panderer being elected to the highest office in the land.
And we thought Bush was bad! Well, he was.

Most ordinary people over here have a very good opinion of President Obama, whilst knowing nothing about USA, your politics, your system, anything. Our press leads us somewhat, I guess....

Ahh........ a form of (political) risk transference...... what we were writing about earlier.
Can I explain? If you find a risk ....... any risk, from gun freedom to 'having to cross a road', then there's (at a cost) various responses to 'any identified risk'.
You can destroy the risk . (don't cross the road, at the cost of not being able to reach the other side).
Accept the risk. (Cross, knowing that you might get hit.)
Reduce the risk. (Wear high viz. Go to a controlled crossing. Wait 'til it's quiet, etc)
Transfer the risk. (Take out life insurance, so if you die then your mortgage gets paid, etc etc). Obviously Risk Transference is happier when you just insure your boat, or whatevr .

But earlier, I think you hinted at Political Risk Transference.
Your country is divided about guns. Every time a bad gun thing happens the people need to point fingers at politicians, etc.
So a clever political transfers the risk. Maybe he/she campaigns openly and strongly for gun control. The risk is immediately transferred, regardless of the outcome. If the political wins, then he/she holds hand high in success and earns politic-points. If the political fails, then it's ok, because each time a tragedy happens afterwards, the political can hold hands apart and open and say , 'I did my best'. Risk transference.

But did it happen like this in America? We (in England) did not think so.

Sounds like you guys get a vasectomy at birth.
Hah! You knew I had to go there.

I had a vasectomy at birth, true. The birth of my third and (definitely) last child.

If you moved here, there'd be some immigrant-related restrictions I suppose, but
you could buy long guns, pepper spray, & lock-back knives to your heart's content.

I'm sure you're right. But........ but........ there.... right there, is a sensible, common-sense, gun control. Gun Controllers can be sensible. It's gun haters that you need to aim for........ with your posts, only with your posts....

 

[Revoltingest]

Most ordinary people over here have a very good opinion of President Obama, whilst knowing nothing about USA, your politics, your system, anything. Our press leads us somewhat, I guess....

He's good at making positive impressions upon people who don't know him yet.

I'm sure you're right. But........ but........ there.... right there, is a sensible, common-sense, gun control. Gun Controllers can be sensible. It's gun haters that you need to aim for........ with your posts, only with your posts....

Well, I do try to be clear by referring to the "anti-gun" types, who are the big problem.

 

[Apex]

You throw insults, but you have not yet written anything that amounts to a strong argument for such lax gun-controls.

And you have not written a strong argument for gun bans. All you have presented are broad generalizations and ridiculous exaggerations. I am in favor of gun control which makes sense for us here in the US. I have even made a thread for such ideas, http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...rol-laws-would-actually-work.html#post3197722.

Your criticisms of some American Universities' rules, (including your own at Purdue?), caused me to believe that you have no really strong grasp of what 'the common-sense of gun control' truly is.

I am not sure what "criticisms" you are referring to. But I am in favor of CC in all public institutions, universities included.
Students for Concealed Carry

Why don't you leave this debate to the members who can really make a strong case for easy-gun-access? There are several who can do it without the abuse.

And I am the one throwing insults around? Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just a wallet chain and apparently at some concerts that's considered a weapon.

 

[oldbadger]

And you have not written a strong argument for gun bans.

I'll leave the common sense of gun-bans to the institutions which are all around you which do not want guns on their properties. I've already suggested good perimeter-security, good access-control, good internal security ........ of course, in the case of your university you get fully empowered police officers, don't you?
Take my advice..... don't go into your university with a concealed gun or you might get discovered and then they might make an example of you. Now that would be stupid, as well as dangerous, wouldn't it?

Would you like to list your firearms here? How long have you been using them? What experience have you got? I'm just interested.....,.

All you have presented are broad generalizations and ridiculous exaggerations. I am in favor of gun control which makes sense for us here in the US. I have even made a thread for such ideas,

Good for you! There you go....... gun control.....
My exaggerations are 'for fun', but at the same time they can help (some) people to stop and think. You just didn't stop, and I don't believe that you are thinking straight about the common sense of gun control. You just want what you want, and don't like it when when you're own institutions make rules which you don't like.

You never did answer a question (on this thread or another) about whether your church lets you bring guns into it, or its services.... well?

I am not sure what "criticisms" you are referring to. But I am in favor of CC in all public institutions, universities included.

Concealed carry? In all public institutions? Well..... it doesn't seem like you're ever going to get that, does it? And a huge number of private institutions ain't going to want you CCing in their places, either. Why..... you could have an AD (accidental discharge) right in the middle of the place......... by the way, what insurance cover do you have to cover you in the event that you do accidentally kill or injure somebody?

OMG
...... is there mandatory (compulsory) insurance cover for gun carriers in your State?
Is such cover a federal requirement?
Are police officers allowed to demand to see a cover-note for gun insurance in the same way that they can for vehicle insurance?
Can police officers seize a firearm where they find that it is not covered for third party liability?

Would you like to inform us all about the insurance requirements for gun carrying in your State, and in the USA?

 

[Apex]

I'll leave the common sense of gun-bans to the institutions which are all around you which do not want guns on their properties.

Private institutions can institute whatever policies they wish.

I've already suggested good perimeter-security, good access-control, good internal security ........

What post #?

of course, in the case of your university you get fully empowered police officers, don't you?

When only seconds matter, the police are just minutes away.

Take my advice..... don't go into your university with a concealed gun or you might get discovered and then they might make an example of you. Now that would be stupid, as well as dangerous, wouldn't it?

I am sorry, but I do not need your advice on not breaking the law. Should I give you advice on not licking lead paint off of the walls in old buildings?

Would you like to list your firearms here? How long have you been using them? What experience have you got? I'm just interested.....,.

I have been shooting guns with my family for as long as I can remember. On top of that I am active duty military and am qualified on the M16 and M9. I also own an AR15 and Remington 870.

Good for you! There you go....... gun control.....

Unfortunately the phrase "gun control" can have completely opposite meanings depending upon who is saying it. The majority of gun advocates are in favor of certain gun control measures. It is things like outright bans that many gun control advocates want that we oppose.

My exaggerations are 'for fun', but at the same time they can help (some) people to stop and think. You just didn't stop, and I don't believe that you are thinking straight about the common sense of gun control. You just want what you want, and don't like it when when you're own institutions make rules which you don't like.

And I think you are only reading what you want to read.

You never did answer a question (on this thread or another) about whether your church lets you bring guns into it, or its services.... well?

This I actually do not know. Never checked. I currently do not have a CCWP so it doesn't matter anyway.

Concealed carry? In all public institutions? Well..... it doesn't seem like you're ever going to get that, does it?

Maybe, maybe not. It does not mean you should not try however.

And a huge number of private institutions ain't going to want you CCing in their places, either.

I never mentioned private institutions. So I do not know why you are bringing it up.

Why..... you could have an AD (accidental discharge) right in the middle of the place.........

Accidental discharges are extremely rare and are normally the result of mishandling.
Common Arguments Against Campus Carry

by the way, what insurance cover do you have to cover you in the event that you do accidentally kill or injure somebody?

OMG
...... is there mandatory (compulsory) insurance cover for gun carriers in your State?
Is such cover a federal requirement?
Are police officers allowed to demand to see a cover-note for gun insurance in the same way that they can for vehicle insurance?
Can police officers seize a firearm where they find that it is not covered for third party liability?

Would you like to inform us all about the insurance requirements for gun carrying in your State, and in the USA?

You do not need insurance for a gun to cover it accidentally going off because such occurrences are so extremely rare. And when they do occur they are generally the result of unsafe handling which no insurance company would cover anyways.

From my previous link:

Accidental discharges are very rare—particularly because modern firearms feature multiple safety features and because a handgun’s trigger is typically not exposed when it is concealed—and only a small fraction of accidental discharges result in injury.
Only about 2% of all firearm-related deaths in the U.S. are accidental, and most of those are hunting accidents and accidents involving firearms being openly handled in an unsafe manner. A person is five times more likely to accidentally drown, five times more likely to accidentally die in a fire, 29 times more likely to die in an accidental fall, and 32 times more likely to die from accidental poisoning than to die from an accidental gunshot wound.

Also, it is not uncommon for criminal charges to be brought up in cases where a gun accidentally discharged due to unsafe handling.

 

[oldbadger]

Private institutions can institute whatever policies they wish.

Yes, they surely can, and many public institutions seem to want to ban guns as well.

What post #?

It was the thread where I checked on your own university's gun rules and police presence. probably within a page or so of that post. I think it was the positive gun stories thread. It's there all right!

When only seconds matter, the police are just minutes away.

therefore....... ban all guns on campus. Closed perimeter. Access control. Professional policing and securirty management.

I am sorry, but I do not need your advice on not breaking the law. Should I give you advice on not licking lead paint off of the walls in old buildings?

Excellent. Good for you.

I have been shooting guns with my family for as long as I can remember. On top of that I am active duty military and am qualified on the M16 and M9. I also own an AR15 and Remington 870.

AR15....... what on earth for? I don't know the R-870

Unfortunately the phrase "gun control" can have completely opposite meanings depending upon who is saying it. The majority of gun advocates are in favor of certain gun control measures. It is things like outright bans that many gun control advocates want that we oppose.

Gun Control is perfect. Good common-sense gun control.

And I think you are only reading what you want to read.

I am reading what has been writ. I have no agenda.... but I understand a bit about risk management.

This I actually do not know. Never checked. I currently do not have a CCWP so it doesn't matter anyway.

Fair enough. I'm glad to read that you do need a CCWP in your State.

I never mentioned private institutions. So I do not know why you are bringing it up.

Why shouldn't I?

Accidental discharges are extremely rare and are normally the result of mishandling.

My goodness........ what a cop out. Of course AD's are the result of mishandling!

You do not need insurance for a gun to cover it accidentally going off because such occurrences are so extremely rare. And when they do occur they are generally the result of unsafe handling which no insurance company would cover anyways.

What rubbish! So you think that insurers won't pay out if a car-driver is negligent and damages property or people? This is a serious lack, that third party gun cover is not compulsory in your State. I can't believe this. All those people out in public places with guns, and not carrying compulsory third party insurance cover for, say, $100,000. This is the biggest black hole that I have yet heard of to do with guns-USA.

Also, it is not uncommon for criminal charges to be brought up in cases where a gun accidentally discharged due to unsafe handling.

Gross negligence? Probably a crime + civil claim. Carelessness? Civil Claim. In either case, insurance cover would be necessary to cover the shocking cost of hospital bills.

 

[Apex]

What rubbish! So you think that insurers won't pay out if a car-driver is negligent and damages property or people? This is a serious lack, that third party gun cover is not compulsory in your State. I can't believe this. All those people out in public places with guns, and not carrying compulsory third party insurance cover for, say, $100,000. This is the biggest black hole that I have yet heard of to do with guns-USA.

More of your fake hysterics?

 

[oldbadger]

More of your fake hysterics?

Fake hysterics eh? Right.......... here we go....
Earlier, you wrote:-

You do not need insurance for a gun to cover it accidentally going off because such occurrences are so extremely rare. And when they do occur they are generally the result of unsafe handling which no insurance company would cover anyways.

Now this was rubbish, as I've already posted.

Occurrences are so extremely rare

Gun Control - Just Facts
In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States
In 2007, there were roughly 15,698 emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents,
so..... out of the 16,311 accidents which caused deaths and injuries, how many victims were denied best hospital treatment because there was no adequate insurance cover from the gun owner responsible for the gun accident?

unsafe handling which no insurance company would cover anyways.

Insurance cover is all about protecting against...... mistakes, and even negligence.

If police found that you had no insurance cover for a vehicle you were driving then you would be in a lot of trouble, yet you (with a CCWP) or anybody can carry a loaded gun in public places........ with no third party insurance cover.

Most (detached) people would consider that to be an amazingly strange situation. No wonder public and private institutions don't want people to be able to enter with guns.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, put it this way........... straw men, broad generalisations and ridiculous exaggerations can save lives, if they can help people in denial to see a new point of view.

You're not in a position to deem whether or not someone else is in denial, given that your stance embraces willful ignorance.

They might help to show the absurdity of allowing anybody, absolutely anybody, to be in possession of a folding lock-knife in a public place. That condition, standing on its own...... is not good.

Do you really **** your pants over piddly knives? It's not unusual for your typical male child to have a pocket knife in the U.S., yet we don't have a stabbing epidemic like the U.K. apparently suffers from.

Now escalate it to pistols, and onwards.......

Because various weapons are so easily available in some countries, this causes people who would not otherwise need to carry a weapon..... to have to do so. Where I live it is possible for some villains to obtain guns, but we hear of less shooting-murders here than, for instance, many of your States.

Violent crime is a complex psychological, sociological, and economic issue. I think best to actually address the root causes rather than make a scapegoat/boogeyman out of inanimate objects.

Just over a decade ago we had a problem. Air pistols that used a cartridge or bullet composed of a compressed air cylinder and pellet holder could be purchased by anybody. Most of these were copies of well known revolvers. They could just reach 6 foot-lbs of power. (A very small .22 pistol which shoots short-rounds might manage about 40-50 foot-lbs power, so you can compare the differences in these guns.) Sadly, people started to machine 'inserts' which could fit into these revolvers' chambers, which took .22 long ammunition, and these air-pistols could become firearms. The cheap ones blew up and injured the shooter, but the German made guns did not, and all of a sudden these guns were appearing all over the place. Our Government produced legislation to remove all 'cartridge air guns' from circulation almost immediately, by legislation standards

It appears that a lot these English laws are based on paranoia and hysteria rather than on genuine threats. There are a lot of dangerous things in the world; it's a fact of life. however, dropping to your knees and ceding your personal liberties in exchange for a false sense of security isn't the proper approach.

The reason why I'm boring you with this is not to gain victory thru you being fast asleep............ it's because I want to explain to you that in your country people can carry pistols, handguns, that can develop ...not 50 ft-lbs of power, but 1000 ft-lbs of power. Now that is just strange, because whilst your world has moved into the 21st century, your laws have not.

Surrendering freedom in exchange for security is a step backward, not forward. Restrictive, repressive societies tend to stagnate.

Our old English common law is being outdated and removed all the time. I know this because even ten years ago I could use (and did use) several ancient common laws to hold various types of criminals until police could attend. Nowadays I can only think of one such ancient law that still exists. Times move on, and therefore, many people can't see why certain other countries cannot move forward as well. That's all it is.

I know that you do not have a gun, but stand up for your right to do so. I'm just suggesting that time can make old laws redundant.

Arbitrarily stripping away rights and liberties isn't a "move forward". What other old, obsolete laws should we dispose of? Freedom of speech? Privacy rights? The separation of church and state? The right to representation? The requirement of warrants for searches and seizures? The right to a fair trial? The right to vote? Gender/racial/LGBT equality?

 

[DallasApple]

Yes . Apparently Im "sitting" on a pot of gold. I can use as a weapon.