Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[Katzpur]

If he came down physically and naturally impregnated her would she not really be the "Virgin" Mary? What are LDS beliefs on the virgin birth?

We believe that Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus' conception and at the time of His birth. Is there some conceivable way we can state this point so that it is more easily understood?

 

[Scott C.]

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Now I am completely confused. There is absolutely no reference to Heavenly Mother in the King James Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price. But you say it is official doctrine.

The "Proclamation on the Family" is an official statement of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twleve. It refers to heavenly parents. I consider it to be doctrine.

 

[Katzpur]

Like I said, I don't believe there was a physical impregnation. I hope I was clear on that point. I believe in the vigin birth.

I think you were clear on what you personally believe, but when you said...

What is the relationship between God the Father and the Virgin Mary? The following is what at least some LDS believe:

God the Father condescended from Heaven to physically (intimately) unite with the Virgin Mary to cause her to naturally conceive the physical body of Jesus. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary to protect her from being consumed by the glory of God. Even though Mary had physical contact with the Father, the conception is still considered virgin and miraculous because Mary “knew no mortal man” and the condescension of God was miraculous. Thus, Jesus, who was already the Firstborn spirit child of the Father before the creation of the world, became the “Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh”. Mary was married (sealed) to the Father before this act occurred. Mary will therefore be sealed to the Father forever. Because of this, Mary married Joseph for “time” only, but not for eternity.

...it seems to be suggesting that this is a reasonable interpretation of our doctrine. If you ask enough Mormons, I'm sure you will find some who believe this. But the fact remains that it is not doctrine. If it's our intention to clarify our doctrines, I personally don't think that this is the way to go about it.

 

[roli]

Stuff like that? You'll have to be a bit more specific.

Do you really think we as LDS talk about "stuff like that" all the time? What do you think our Church services are like and what do you think we talk about?

Were getting so far of the question I am asking, it's very confusing to follow.

I would just like to know some main points from your doctrine concerning God
Ok, God was'nt ,"married", ...but there is more to the story.

Let me lay it out! answer yes or no, or a brief explanation and references from any of your books.
Were Just talking about God , his past and his present state, mortal ,immortal

Was God flesh and bone.did he have a body, yes or no ,and what book and reference.?
Was he mortal like we are now?
Did he have a heavenly wife or a mother, as some of you say ?
Did he have, produce, procreate Jesus through intercourse?
Were God's sons Jesus and Lucifer through this relation?
Did God have a father and a grandfather ?

 

[Scott C.]

I think you were clear on what you personally believe, but when you said...



...it seems to be suggesting that this is a reasonable interpretation of our doctrine. If you ask enough Mormons, I'm sure you will find some who believe this. But the fact remains that it is not doctrine. If it's our intention to clarify our doctrines, I personally don't think that this is the way to go about it.

I thought I was real clear that this is not our doctrine. Maybe I erred in acknowledging that I have personaly heard some LDS erroneously express their belief in this regard.

 

[Katzpur]

I thought I was real clear that this is not our doctrine. Maybe I erred in acknowledging that I have personaly heard some LDS erroneously express their belief in this regard.

Well, when people are trying to trip you up, they don't need a lot of latitude.

 

[Francine]

The "Proclamation on the Family" is an official statement of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twleve. It refers to heavenly parents. I consider it to be doctrine.

As I said above, I've been smacked down for quoting from Brigham Young and from the Quorum of the Twelve as though it were doctrine. Apparently I can only talk about official doctrine. Statements from Brigham Young, or even Joseph Smith concerning these issues are tossed out. What I am taking away from all this is that even the sitting LDS President doesn't have anything to say, and I will only discuss things found in the KJV, the BoM, the D&C, and the PoGP. I do have a bigger head start than most people, I have read the BoM and I know the KJV like the back of my mother's hand.

 

[nutshell]

Was God flesh and bone.did he have a body?

You have framed your question in the past tense, but we do, in fact that God presently has a body of flesh and bone. From canon: D&C 130:22 "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's..."

Was he mortal like we are now?

A prophet once said something like "As man is God once was / As God is man may become." This statement is not in our canon.

Did he have a heavenly wife or a mother, as some of you say ?

I'm unaware of any direct statements that say God had a Heavenly Mother (or Father for that matter).

Regarding a Heavenly Wife: The Family, a non-canon statement issue by the general leadership of the Church, states that we are children of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

Did he have, produce, procreate Jesus through intercourse?

There are no statements in the canon that refer to this. We know God created our spirits from something referred to as "intelligences." However, "how" spirits were created is not discussed.

From the canon: Abraham 3: 21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;


23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

Were God's sons Jesus and Lucifer through this relation?

By "relation" I am infering you mean "sexual relation." As stated above, the canon does not make any such statement. Lucifer's spirit would have been created from the same "intelligences" mentioned in the scripture above. Indeed, he may have even been one of the "noble and great ones." However, he is fallen.

Did God have a father and a grandfather ?

I am not aware of any statement in canon that says this.

 

[roli]

God was never married to Mary. We believe that God has a eternal companion, who is our Mother in Heaven. Except in some of the lowest species, all creatures have both a mother and a father.

Are seriously being evasive and general, or is it just me.
Ok ,not technically married, what kind of relation was it, spirit sex or actual physical intercourse.

If you answer, could you give a refernce of what book it is that speaks about it.

Who do you believe the eternal companion to be Mary or someone other?
Did he have Jesus and Lucifer through this relationship ?

 

[Scott C.]

Well, when people are trying to trip you up, they don't need a lot of latitude.

This is not the first time in my life that I've been accussed of being naive when it comes to interpreting the motivations of others.

 

[Katzpur]

Let me lay it out! answer yes or no, or a brief explanation and references from any of your books.
Were Just talking about God , his past and his present state, mortal ,immortal

Was God flesh and bone.did he have a body, yes or no ,and what book and reference?

Yes. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." (Doctrine & Covenants:130:22)

Was he mortal like we are now?

We have no official doctrine on anything God was doing prior to the creation of our universe. John 5:19 states, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." This can be interpreted as saying that Jesus patterned His own mortal existance after His Father's, but I would not argue that it's a conclusive statement on God's existance prior to "the beginning" as described in Genesis.

Did he have a heavenly wife or a mother, as some of you say?

In the document entitled, "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles issued statement which says, "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents." We do believe that God is not alone in Heaven, but that He has a female counterpart. It won't do you any good to ask any questions about Her, though, since this one statement is all we have been given.

Did he have, produce, procreate Jesus through intercourse?[/quote}No.

Were God's sons Jesus and Lucifer through this relation?

Jesus was the firstborn of our Father in Heaven's spirit children. Unlike any of the rest of us, including Lucifer, Jesus was perfect in the beginning. He had all of the divine qualities His Father had. He also had a multitude of spirit siblings, among them, each one of us and Lucifer. We continue to be God's children today. Lucifer, on the other hand, lost that right when he rebelled against his Father.

Did God have a father and a grandfather ?

You'll have to save that one for God when you see Him. He hasn't told us.

 

[nutshell]

As I said above, I've been smacked down for quoting from Brigham Young and from the Quorum of the Twelve as though it were doctrine. Apparently I can only talk about official doctrine. Statements from Brigham Young, or even Joseph Smith concerning these issues are tossed out. What I am taking away from all this is that even the sitting LDS President doesn't have anything to say, and I will only discuss things found in the KJV, the BoM, the D&C, and the PoGP. I do have a bigger head start than most people, I have read the BoM and I know the KJV like the back of my mother's hand.

I believe you're close to presenting an "either/or" fallacy. I say this because it's not as simple (for us) to say "yes - it's doctrine" or "no - it's not." We have the canon, but we also have teachings through the prophets that have not been canonized. We believe the prophets are called to lead the Church at particular times and for particular reasons. We often scoff at what an early prophet may have said probably because we are not the intended audience of his words from 100+ years ago. The Family is not canon. However, we believe God has given us this document for our time. Right now. In general, the Church believes the institution of marriage to be under attack. Divorce is up and the importance of marriage has been seriously reduced in society. Because of this, we were given a revelation. Now, does that mean it's canon. No. It may be some day. Or, 100 years from now, someone on RF will be quoting from it and explaining what I've explaned now: It was a revelation important to the time, but was never canonized so we don't teach it now. Only time will tell what happens.

We are a very fluid church. Our critics state that's because we have to change to fit in or cover-up ridiculous doctrines. We state that it's because we have continuing revelation and get guidance from God and the issues of the day. Both interpretations are valid.

 

[nutshell]

Are seriously being evasive and general, or is it just me.
Ok ,not technically married, what kind of relation was it, spirit sex or actual physical intercourse.

If you answer, could you give a refernce of what book it is that speaks about it.

Who do you believe the eternal companion to be Mary or someone other?
Did he have Jesus and Lucifer through this relationship ?

Are you going to keep asking the same questions over and over or start accepting the fact you've been answered? I'll do it one more time so I don't have to listen to you anymore (in regards to this topic).

There is NOTHING in the canon that says God has spirit sex or actual physical intercourse with the VIRGIN Mary.

There is NOTHING in the canon that says God's eternal companion is Mary. The Family, a non-canon text, states that there is a Heavenly Mother of all of us. It does not identify that person as Mary.

Jesus and Lucifer were created by God. There is NOTHING in the canon that suggests this was accomplished through sex - physical or spiritual.

 

[Katzpur]

Are seriously being evasive and general, or is it just me.

It's definitely just you. Trust me on that.

Ok ,not technically married, what kind of relation was it, spirit sex or actual physical intercourse.

I don't know what "spirit sex" is. We do not believe that God had intercourse with Mary in order to impregnate her. Is there some other way I can say this so that you will not find it "evasive"?

If you answer, could you give a refernce of what book it is that speaks about it.

Luke 1:26-35.

Who do you believe the eternal companion to be Mary or someone other?

Someone else. We do not believe Mary to be our Mother in Heaven.

Did he have Jesus and Lucifer through this relationship ?

I believe so, but I refuse to say how it was accomplished, as I don't have a clue.

 

[McBell]

Are seriously being evasive and general, or is it just me.
Ok ,not technically married, what kind of relation was it, spirit sex or actual physical intercourse.

If you answer, could you give a refernce of what book it is that speaks about it.

Who do you believe the eternal companion to be Mary or someone other?
Did he have Jesus and Lucifer through this relationship ?

Perhaps in your hurry to be insulting Katspur you overlooked this:

Do YOU believe that God was married to Mary?
If not then it brings up an interesting question of jesus being allowed to enter into a church. Deu 23:2

 

[FFH]

Here's our official doctrine:

Luke 1:26-38 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Nice, was thinking of doing the same thing. It's amazing how distorted this simple scripture can become. Really can it be any clearer than this?, no need for any further revelation, it's pretty straight forward.

 

[nutshell]

OK - roli. Katz and I have both given you straight-forward answers. It's your turn now, but if you repeat the same question again I swear I'll %itch slap you through the Internet.

 

[athanasius]

I have a question. Do LDS View Satan as a fallen Angel?

 

[Katzpur]

I have a question. Do LDS View Satan as a fallen Angel?

Yes, we do. We believe Him to have been known prior to his rebellion against God as "Lucifer."

 

[nutshell]

I have a question. Do LDS View Satan as a fallen Angel?

Answering on impulse, I don't know if Satan would qualify as an "angel" as LDS use that term. But we certainly believe he was an influential spirit in the pre-existence and is, indeed, fallen.